Episode 39 // The Guys Talk Talent Motivation with Author and Entrepreneur Grant Botma.

Chris Stadler:
This is the AZ Brandcast, where we explore Arizona’s brand, and the brands that make Arizona. I’m Christ Stadler.

Mike Jones:
And I’m Mike Jones.

Mike Jones:
All right, hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of AZ Brandcast with Chris and Mike. I’m super excited to have you on today as well as our guest, Grant Botma from Stewardship. A little bit about Grant, he’s born and raised in Arizona and Grant is an entrepreneur and author, having started Stewardship, a Gilbert company based in Gilbert, Arizona, assisting clients in areas of financial planning, from mortgages, to wills and trusts, and a whole bunch of other things, including insurance, I believe. And Grant has also written a book about management. This was pretty recently, right?

Grant Botma:
Yeah.

Mike Jones:
The Problem Isn’t Their Paycheck. I’m super excited to have Grant on. Grant, your history with Resound, I think, is super exciting. That’s one of the reasons I’m super excited to have you on. We’ve been friends for a long time. We got to work with you, I think starting in 2011 or ’12?

Grant Botma:
Yep.

Mike Jones:
On your brand, kind of helping you think through some of the challenges that you were having early on as you guys were getting going. Then watching you over the last basically eight, nine years just booming. It’s been really fun to watch your company grow and I always appreciate you in particular and your desire to build a great company culture. We were just talking about this before we got on the show about your passion for building brand through culture, kind of an inside out approach to building a great brand. And then also just your love for Arizona and all the many, many things that you do and are involved with here. You are definitely a serial entrepreneur.

Grant Botma:
Yeah. I like to call myself a compassionate capitalist, rather than serial entrepreneur. I think that sounds better. But for what it’s worth, whether it’s speaking on stage or writing or doing something, a lot of times I’m asked the question like, “Grant, what are some major turning points for your business?” And every single time I can talk about what think Resound team was able to walk me through. That was an unbelievable turning point for my business. A huge paradigm shift for me as a business owner and leader. So that said, I’m extremely grateful for you guys, your team, the work you did because where Stewardship is, we wouldn’t be there without you guys. It’s an honor to be here.

Mike Jones:
Full disclosure to our listeners, Resound is also a client of Stewardship. You guys do our business insurance.

Grant Botma:
That’s right, yes.

Mike Jones:
And then I’m personally a client. I think we’ve done some refi, at least one refi with you guys on our home. And then also I believe our home and auto insurance is through you guys too.

Grant Botma:
Yeah.

Chris Stadler:
We’re not just fans from afar. We really appreciate the service you guys provide. [crosstalk 00:03:01]

Grant Botma:
Yeah, you’ve been able to experience the brand and the culture, right?

Mike Jones:
Yep.

Grant Botma:
Yeah, that’s awesome.

Mike Jones:
Just want to make sure that’s clear to everybody. That’s kind of like the, we’re pitching you guys not just because we like what you’re doing but we actually get a lot of benefit out of it too. It’s great.

Chris Stadler:
Who’s Resound, Mike?

Grant Botma:
Oh, let’s talk about that later. Who’s Resound? Okay, Chris, fine.

Chris Stadler:
Okay.

Mike Jones:
Who’s Resound? Okay, Chris, fine. Who is Resound?

Chris Stadler:
Well I’m just thinking there might be people out there like, “I’m listening to the AZ Brandcast, who are these resound cats?”

Grant Botma:
So Resound is an organization dear to my heart and hopefully to Chris’s heart too.

Chris Stadler:
And my heart, yes.

Mike Jones:
And my heart.

Chris Stadler:
All of our hearts.

Mike Jones:
Including Sam, our producer. [crosstalk 00:03:39]. Resound is our agency. So we did branding and marketing for small to mid size businesses who sell to other businesses.

Chris Stadler:
And we happen to be all the same guys who are doing the AZ Brandcast. Kind of works out.

Mike Jones:
Works for us. It’s an interesting coincidence that we talk a lot about branding on this podcast in Arizona, which are two things very dear to Resound’s heart.

Chris Stadler:
Do we do the ice breaker question or has the ice been broken?

Mike Jones:
I feel like the ice has been broken, but you spent so much time every episode coming up with these amazing ice breaker questions that I think we have to do it.

Chris Stadler:
It’s a labor of love.

Mike Jones:
Yeah.

Chris Stadler:
Biggest gripe, okay. So here’s the question, the ice breaker. You get choices on this one. Biggest gripe about transactional employment practices, kind of the pay more get more that’s how you get more. It’s just like you spend more you get more. Or biggest mess up a company has made by taking a transactional approach.

Chris Stadler:
So first of all what’s a transactional approach, what do I mean by that?

Mike Jones:
Yeah, what do you mean by that Chris? Or do you want us to interpret it for you?

Chris Stadler:
Please.

Mike Jones:
Okay.

Chris Stadler:
I think you guys both have an idea.

Mike Jones:
I want to hear what Grant thinks about transactional employment.

Grant Botma:
So if you’re saying transactional employment, I would say, “Hey, look, I’m giving you a wage. Therefore, you need to do your best.” It’s the type of management or leadership style that doesn’t have a ton of empathy. I think the transactional employment is actually maybe the reason why Deloitte found that 89% of employees are not giving their best at work, because it is transactional. That’s my guess.

Mike Jones:
I like that definitely.

Chris Stadler:
I like it too.

Mike Jones:
Ditto. I’m going to go with Grant’s answer. I’m going to cheat off his test answers.

Chris Stadler:
You give me these hours, I give you this money.

Grant Botma:
Yep.

Chris Stadler:
Hmm.

Grant Botma:
So that’s one of the biggest shifts in the mindset of a manager or leader that I’m trying to help with. They are entitled. They have this business. They’re giving somebody a wage. They’re giving somebody a job. Therefore, you should be grateful to me. And that’s not how the human brain works. That’s not how you can get the most out of people. That’s not how you can get people to be on goal mission in your team with you. That’s like managers want this, they’re entitled, they want them to say hey just show up and do it. But at the same time they complain, “How do I get my team to have more of an ownership mentality?” Don’t treat them transactionally.

Chris Stadler:
So the managers treat them transactionally but then they expect ownership on the way back, right?

Grant Botma:
Correct.

Chris Stadler:
Great, “You need to have your heart and soul given to what we’re doing here because we’re all on the same team.”

Grant Botma:
Yeah. And I think that’s because they think, they assume that everybody on their team sees the world the same way they do. So it’s like, “I have an ownership mentality. Why don’t you?”

Chris Stadler:
Yeah.

Grant Botma:
People are different. People think differently. People absorb experiences differently and that’s important to understanding.

Mike Jones:
Yeah, and I even wonder too, it’s like, well, why should they? That’s what I often think about when I’m thinking through that process of like, “Well why aren’t you taking more ownership? Why aren’t you taking more responsibility for the work that you’re doing?” Having maybe that ownership style mentality or more entrepreneurship style mentality. And it’s like, well hang on a sec. If I put myself in their shoes for a moment, what am I getting from the company that would lend itself to that type of mentality, right? A paycheck doesn’t, that doesn’t equate to ownership. So what is it that’s working in this relationship that would make me say, “Oh, I do want to have more ownership over what I’m doing because that’s how it’s been structured.”

Mike Jones:
I wonder often if that’s, you talk about start ups in particular who are very quick often to give equity to early stage employees because they know how critical that level of ownership over the work is. It’s like, “Hey, we can’t guarantee you no more than 40 hours a week.” You might be given 80 for like three years of your life in order for this thing to take off and get where it really needs to go. And so we’ve got to structure this in a way where you actually feel that buy in. So, I don’t know.

Chris Stadler:
So can you guys think of, so my example, do you want me to start and then-

Grant Botma:
Yeah.

Chris Stadler:
I’ll give you guys a second?

Mike Jones:
Yeah go, Chris. You’ve thought about this.

Chris Stadler:
Well my, I actually didn’t have an answer until now.

Mike Jones:
Oh, okay.

Chris Stadler:
Grant helped me think of one. I just remember one time in Portland we were renting a place right across from Nike and it was this apartment. And I just remember they raised the rent. I was like, that’s cool but we’re awesome tenants and I know for a fact not everybody pays on time always and doesn’t break stuff and has a clean place when they leave. I know that for a fact. And we’re easy to work with. So I went down and talked to them and they were like, “Sorry, there’s nothing we can do.” And I’m just kind of like, and that’s fair and I have no complaint, the lady was really nice, but at the same time I was just like, you know what, whenever I knew the owner directly they would bend over backwards to get us to stay. They would be super cool and everything because we knew we didn’t break their stuff. And they knew we always paid our rent on time. But you rent from a transactional company and the system is set up that you’re a number. It doesn’t matter what the leasing agent wants to do. She has no power. It’s just set up to be transactional.

Grant Botma:
I think the word that is going to be different than transactional is one that focuses on connection, obviously relational. So even if, let’s say there genuinely was nothing that could be done, there were circumstances outside of that property manager’s control that they had to increase rates. Maybe their costs increased. Maybe the market told them that they were way under value and they had to. There’s a ton of other different things. Well even if it was a relational situation, that person would’ve said, “Hey, there’s nothing that I can do.” But they would’ve educated you. They would’ve listened. They would’ve responded with empathy. And that’s important. The managers and leaders must listen.

Chris Stadler:
And that would’ve made me feel not so taken advantage of because I would’ve felt like, so I’m so important that she’s taking the time to explain to me what’s going on and I would feel respected.

Grant Botma:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- And that’s true of brands too. You have to listen to your ideal customers. You have to listen to your audience and then respond in kind to what you’re hearing rather than just saying, “Buy now, buy now, buy now, or don’t.” That’s just not going to work. So, understanding that… Everybody talks about, “Okay, managers and leaders and business owners, you got to be a visionary.” I don’t know, maybe I just made this word up, but I think everyone should be a listenary. I think everybody should focus on listening. And that’s a really, really, really big deal.

Chris Stadler:
I’m writing down hashtag listenary right now.

Grant Botma:
Going in the show notes. Going on the post.

Chris Stadler:
What do you guys got? What examples?

Grant Botma:
Yeah, this one’s, how real do you want me to get?

Chris Stadler:
Well I can think of a recent situation with a certain-

Mike Jones:
I don’t know if I’m thinking of the same thing. I’m thinking of something a little bit older, because that feels a little safer.

Chris Stadler:
Yes, probably. A little less emotional.

Mike Jones:
Yeah. So from an employment standpoint we’ve been through this at Resound over the years of trying to figure out how do we instill a sense of, I don’t know if ownership’s the right word, but a sense of responsibility and pro activeness on our team? It’s been, I’d say, a lot of trial and error. I don’t think we’ve always had it figured out. And I think, Grant, I would say you guys are ahead of us on a lot of those things in terms of kind of thinking that through in a more strategic way and a more developed process type of way which is why I really appreciate a lot of the content you’re putting out right now about it.

Mike Jones:
But I know we’ve struggled with this. I remember one time having a conversation with one of the people on our team, one of the creatives, and I remember saying like, I don’t… So there’s a fundamental trend in most agency cultures where agency owners are looking to maximize time. How much time can I get my team to give to the agency and our clients because we bill by the hour. So the more time you put in, the more we make. And so part of that is at the structural level of the agency. But I remember when we started Resound one of the things I was really passionate about was I don’t want to burn people out. I really don’t want to be that agency like every other agency I’ve ever worked at or heard of where people are like, “Yeah, I only lasted a year and a half, two, three years because by the end of my three year stint there I was doing 70, 80 hours a week.” And that’s just not sustainable.

Mike Jones:
and I remember we were at this kind of inflection point in the business where it was a tough time. We were going through this six month period where cash flow as really tight. And I remember looking at one of my creatives and saying, “Look, nobody here works more than 40 hours a week. But I can’t seem to make the financials work out.” And there was this point where I was like, maybe the reality is this is just what it takes to run an agency profitably, is you have to work people into the ground. I’m like, “That sucks. I really don’t want that.” And that person looked at me and was like, “No, I don’t think you have to do that.”

Mike Jones:
I wasn’t convinced in the moment. I was having a little bit of like a woe is me like, I don’t know what else to do to get people… Because the other issue we were having on the flip side was I couldn’t even get full time employees to max out their 40 hours. We were having this issue of like, “Hey you guys are tracking your time and you’re never hitting your hours. I don’t know what to do to incentivize you to really say, “Hey I am going to actually put in…” We had some billable efficiencies around like it’s not 100% billable, it’s not 100% productive time. But I need 40 hours, that’s the commitment that we’ve made to each other and how can we do that?

Mike Jones:
And what I’ve realized over the years is more, I think some of it was realizing we need to individualize that approach to hours where it’s like, let’s talk about your priorities. So I think going back to your principal, Grant, of listening first. Saying like, “Well, what are your priorities? Is it really the salary?” “Okay, well then I have an expectation of the number of hours that we need to hit in order to make that work from a financial standpoint.” If it’s not the salary, or that’s not the only thing, or there’s something else that could be on that. Maybe it’s like, “Hey, I have these other things going on in my life, I need time with my family because of certain circumstances.” Or I’ve had employees who are like, “I have a side gig and I really am passionate about it and I want to figure out how to make that work with what we’re doing here.”And it’s like great then let’s put you in a different kind of contract in terms of how we’re going to sit down and formalize an agreement of how we’re going to work together.

Mike Jones:
Because I think that is important, having set expectations. Setting what are the expectations from both sides anytime you work with anyone whether that’s an employee, a vendor, a contractor, or a client. What are the expectations, right? What’s the relationship going to look like, as much as we can, knowing it’ll probably shift. But let’s set these expectations up front of what we expect, what you expect from us, and how are we going to work together. And that’s one of the things we’ve realized is, a lot of our creative staff don’t actually value the total amount at the end of the day as much as, yeah I want to make sure I’m hitting a certain baseline in terms of what am I worth from an hourly standpoint, what’s my work worth. But really it’s the flexibility is incredible.

Mike Jones:
And so a lot of our staff have moved from full time to contract because of that. Because it allows them to have a flexibility to kind of go spend their time the way they want to and not feel like they’re being forced in like, “Oh I got to hit my hours and…” and all these things that come in to play when you employ full time people. And there’s other constraints around that when you deal with freelancers and contractors and all the legalities of that, which has been really fun to work through.

Mike Jones:
I don’t know. That’s my story. It’s a little bit rambling.

Grant Botma:
But it’s extremely relevant to the convo that we’re having and honestly it’s a huge reason why I wrote the book and a large portion of what the book is about. So many people think that compensation is the number one motivating factor in the human brain and it’s not. Research over and over and over again for hundreds of years lets us know that we want more than that. And the three things that are more important are one, like you said, freedom. People want that autonomy. That’s a big deal. Next, people want affirmation. They want to become a master of our craft. They want to be really, really good at something or they want to know if they’re doing something right. That’s a big deal. But more importantly, the number one thing that motivates most human beings, healthy human beings anyways, is a purpose. They want to have something to pursue. They want to make the world a better place. And if they’re able to do it with other people in a community, have a unified purpose, that is powerful. And people were likely choosing, like you said, that contract situation because it gave them that freedom that they wanted. And that’s important.

Grant Botma:
The thing that most business owners that I’m talking with struggle, and I failed at this miserably, was I had this purpose for what Stewardship was going to be about. We were going to love people through finances and dang it if we didn’t take care of them, somebody else was going to close a transaction for them and it wasn’t going to be the best. And that’s terrible because if they don’t get the best or if they even get taken advantage of, that’s the number one cause of divorce. Or they might not have a good relationship with their kids, or on and on and on it goes.

Grant Botma:
I’m very deeply passionate about that. But I didn’t share that passion with everybody else. I didn’t share that purpose of why I started Stewardship with everybody else. So even though I had amazing employees, if I didn’t share that purpose, it burnt me. So I had to go all in on social science. I had to go all in on diving in and figuring out how and why the human brain works the way it does. And decided to be very, very purposeful in my language, creating this unified purpose statement, and creating character traits that we were going to do to pursue that together. And pointing everything to it.

Grant Botma:
And the beautiful thing about Resound is you aren’t just a marketing company. Having had an experience with you, you want to see businesses thrive and win. And you want to get to know the heart of that business and the why behind it and make that why come out. You believe everyone is remarkable. And you guys helped the things that are remarkable about me and my brand come out. And that was beautiful. What a wonderful purpose that can be. And having a team of people to say, “You know what, there are some remarkable businesses out here. Let’s find a way together to bring that out of them, because when we do, it’s going to make a big impact on our community.” How powerful is that, right.

Grant Botma:
So having that purpose that people can pursue together, giving them the affirmation that they need or even, like you said they had the side gigs, becoming masters of a different craft, supporting them in that. And then creating the freedom’s a big deal.

Mike Jones:
Yeah, and that was something we, we started very similarly where David, Jeff, and I as we started the company in 2009 had this sense of intrinsic purpose behind what we were doing. That tagline, You are Remarkable, came about very early on in our company life span. But I don’t know, we were hesitant I think, and maybe we didn’t have it all figured out too, to really talk about it, really instill it within our company culture. And I remember five years ago having this really deep conversation with one of our employees about some of the nuances of that language, of you are remarkable and us saying that about saying every single organization is intrinsically remarkable, and them going, “I don’t know if I agree with that.” And that was a moment where we solidified that belief at the leadership level and it really started to trickle down and we realized we had some wrong fits on the team. Where they weren’t bought in to that purpose fully.

Mike Jones:
And we realized, if you really don’t believe this, you’re going to have a really hard time fully living it out with our clients because you’re going to run in to clients where you’re like, because I don’t fundamentally believe that every organization is intrinsically remarkable, because of the people that have built it, because people are intrinsically remarkable, then you’re always going to have this asterisk on that relationship. And we can’t have that. We have to work with companies that we go, “We believe it.” If we don’t believe it, then this doesn’t work.

Grant Botma:
And I think it’s more than just saying, “Hey you’ve got to believe this.” But they also have to believe the why behind your pursuing it. Why is it just plain wrong that there’s companies out there that are remarkable and it’s not being produced or communicated out to the world? Why is that just plain wrong? And if they’re not only believing in that purpose but pursuing that purpose with passion, that has to mesh as well.

Chris Stadler:
It is frustrating seeing people and you’re just like, dang you guys could communicate yourself so much better and the world would be a little different if you did.

Chris Stadler:
Should we talk about Arizona a little bit?

Grant Botma:
Sure.

Chris Stadler:
So, Grant, you’re kind of an Arizona, you love Arizona a lot.

Grant Botma:
A lot.

Chris Stadler:
Let’s just say that, right? So does anyone ever think it’s a little weird how much you love Arizona?

Grant Botma:
I think people from outside of Arizona do because they don’t understand. And maybe that’s why I love Arizona so much. It’s not only just home for me, born and raised, but there’s so many amazing things here that aren’t in other states. I genuinely believe that this time of year right now as we’re sitting which is March, there’s no better place in the world to be than Arizona.

Chris Stadler:
I think rattlesnakes are like, “yeah, totally agree.” Isn’t this rattlesnake season?

Grant Botma:
Is it? I have no idea.

Chris Stadler:
They’re just starting to go out and like find love.

Mike Jones:
Today they are like, man it’s rainy and cold. Why would I go outside-

Grant Botma:
That’s right, it’s raining today.

Mike Jones:
Being those cold blooded reptiles that they are.

Grant Botma:
Yeah, people think it’s weird that I like Arizona so much because they don’t understand the amazing food, the amazing weather, the amazing sports, how organized the roads are, how awesome the housing is. The different sub communities. People don’t know those, haven’t experienced that. And I think that’s why they think it’s weird.

Chris Stadler:
So you mentioned places to go.

Grant Botma:
Yes.

Chris Stadler:
What are your three favorite places to go in Arizona?

Grant Botma:
Okay, so I said food. I think Arizona, and I’ve traveled to a lot of different cities and states and been to a lot of different restaurants, Arizona is definitely on the top of the states out there as far as foodie people go. There’s some really great chefs and amazing restaurants here. So one of my favorite places to go is just awesome food places in Arizona. And there’s a plethora, there’s so many to choose from. From the best pizza place in the country, which is Pizzeria Bianco in downtown Phoenix.

Mike Jones:
That’s a good one.

Chris Stadler:
Pizza Ribianco?

Grant Botma:
Pizzeria-

Chris Stadler:
Pizzeria Bianco.

Grant Botma:
Yeah.

Chris Stadler:
Oh.

Grant Botma:
And there’s-

Mike Jones:
Right under the department. It’s in their building.

Chris Stadler:
Oh, okay.

Mike Jones:
I think so. No, different one, sorry.

Grant Botma:
It’s near the Diamondback Stadium.

Mike Jones:
Yes.

Grant Botma:
And it’s right next to Arizona Science Center. But then so other places to go. I’m a huge sports fan. I say March is the best time of year in Arizona because I love spring training. I am a season ticket holder to the Cubs’ spring training games. I actually take the month of March quote unquote “off”-

Mike Jones:
That’s awesome.

Grant Botma:
Where I literally work very, very, very part time. And there’s a lot of intentionally behind that for my culture, for my family, for everything else. But basically I just take this month and go to spring training games with my family.

Chris Stadler:
You have like on your calender, WFS work from stadium.

Grant Botma:
Yeah.

Mike Jones:
Work from stadium. I like that, it’s great.

Chris Stadler:
There’s an aspirational goal, work from stadium.

Mike Jones:
Work from stadium, not there yet.

Chris Stadler:
I’m not to the Grant Botma level of taking March off. That’s going on my personal goals list. I don’t know if it’s work from stadium, but-

Grant Botma:
I like work a lot. I like what I do. So I don’t know if I can ever be completely off so that’s why I have air quotes when I say off. But taking that month off is unbelievably huge for me personally and a big deal for my company. So many great things happen without being distracted by some of the day to day management or leadership or vision kind of stuff, without the day to day ambassador stuff that I’m doing for our company. I’m able to really hyper focus in on one or two projects. And I kind of have this thing where, like I’m the opposite of most entrepreneurs. I don’t think you have to work up early every day and rise and grind. I think that’s dumb. I woke up at 9:00 today and honestly that’s typical for me. I wake up around 7:30 or 8:00 every day.

Chris Stadler:
Do you ever go to a baseball game and see a good defensive play and then you’re like, that’s an analogy for life and for business?

Grant Botma:
Yeah.

Chris Stadler:
I’m just trying to make a business case for sports.

Grant Botma:
Yeah. There’s analogies for life everywhere.

Chris Stadler:
Why is it baseball you always read people go to a baseball game and they get inspired? Why is not like soccer or baseball?

Mike Jones:
Well, do you want my cynical view?

Chris Stadler:
Yeah, tell us your cynical view.

Mike Jones:
Because you spend a lot of the baseball game thinking about other things other than baseball.

Grant Botma:
Totally, slower pace.

Mike Jones:
Versus like, if I go to a basketball game, there’s no time to be thinking about anything else other than basketball because it’s happening.

Chris Stadler:
Yeah, right. And it’s happening fast.

Mike Jones:
It’s happening fast.

Grant Botma:
But in the month off I’m not necessarily just going to the spring training and saying, “Oh man that just happened and now my mind is blown,” and then I change things for the company. But it’s intentional. I’m going to make this time where I work on this project but I’m also going to be hyper research mode. So again, I-

Mike Jones:
It’s more lean back, lean back work.

Grant Botma:
Yeah, because I don’t wake up early, I actually do things at night. So I put my kids and everybody to bed and I just have this time at night that’s just mine. And I get to my home office and I’m able to bang out those projects or start working on them. Or really take this online course, read this book, listen to these podcasts, and obtain some knowledge about where our society is, where it’s heading so I can make sure my company’s ahead of the curve.

Mike Jones:
Cool. I feel like there’s a whole new product idea here. We’re going to talk to our friends at [inaudible 00:27:33] at the department about spinning up a coworking space at the stadium.

Chris Stadler:
At, in the box, like buy a couple boxes, combine them, work space.

Grant Botma:
I’m in. Sign me up.

Chris Stadler:
Coworking.

Chris Stadler:
So, Grant, you wrote a book called, The Problem Isn’t Their Paycheck and I found a little summary on Amazon. Can I intro you?

Grant Botma:
Oh, yeah.

Chris Stadler:
The Problem Isn’t Their Paycheck, How to Attract Top Talent and Build a Thriving Company Culture. We have a couple questions for you, that’s why we’re doing this. Here’s a description of it on Amazon.

Chris Stadler:
“We’ve been made to believe that money is the ultimate motivator. We think that businesses who have high end compensation packages attract the best talent and that well compensated employees will be high performers and stay content. The stats and scientifically proven data say otherwise. The top talent and the highest producing employees desire three things other than money. I The Problem Isn’t Their Paycheck, Grant Botma reveals what those forces are and how to easy implement them so you can hire right and lead better. It has reached number one bestseller status in six categories.” What?

Mike Jones:
That’s awesome.

Grant Botma:
That was weird. I’ll be honest, I didn’t expect hat.

Chris Stadler:
Yeah? You didn’t expect such praise from the AZ Brandcast?

Grant Botma:
Well, yes.

Chris Stadler:
Oh, the best seller stuff.

Grant Botma:
That and the best seller stuff.

Chris Stadler:
Oh, yeah.

Grant Botma:
It was weird. That was really weird.

Chris Stadler:
Yeah, that’s cool.

Mike Jones:
Yeah and you’ve already touched on those three things in the podcast already. So they were flexibility-

Grant Botma:
Freedom, which is flexibility, affirmation, and the number one is a unified purpose. There’s been a lot of talk right now between business managers, leaders, you got to have a vision, you got to have a purpose. But I think you’ve got to go deeper than that, it’s got to be a purpose that unifies the team. And the key to that is your purpose must require a selfless sacrifice. Because when your purpose for your company requires you to give up yourself to make the world a better place, then you can give up yourself with other people and it creates this, when you’re sacrificing for other people and with other people it creates unity in an unbelievable way. So yeah, those are the things.

Chris Stadler:
I remember reading about Southwest Airlines along time ago, how they, I only found it once but it was a research paper or something. It said that they claimed that their employees were more important than their customers.

Grant Botma:
Yep.

Chris Stadler:
Have you heard that?

Grant Botma:
100%. Yeah, I fully believe it too. Our company purpose at Stewardship is to love people through finances. How do you do that? That sounds really weird. One, you just said love and finances, what? But to love well, some of the best acts of love in the history of the world have sacrifice weaved into every piece of it. So in order for us to love well, I have to love my team well. So if they’re asking, “Well how do I love customers through finance. Oh I get it, I just do the things that Grant does to me.” So if I treat my employees right, then they will treat our customers right. That top down leadership mentality is a big deal.

Chris Stadler:
I do have one hard hitting journalism question though, and it might make you very uncomfortable, but-

Grant Botma:
I’m ready.

Mike Jones:
He’s at the plate. He’s ready to hit this one out of the park.

Chris Stadler:
Okay, so when I looked your book had all five star reviews and that wasn’t from three people. That was from 99 reviews. So my question for you is, how much did you pay those people and how did you recruit them?

Grant Botma:
Yes. I paid them nothing, sadly. Because if there was a way that I could pay them to get more reviews, I would totally pay them. It’s weird that the process that the publisher takes you through, I didn’t know this about Amazon reviews, but they’re hard especially for a book, to get to stick. So somebody might write a review for a book and then maybe one out of ever five or six or seven will actually stick. So the total number of reviews that have been written for my book are way more than 99-

Chris Stadler:
Really?

Grant Botma:
But those are only the ones that stuck. So they track the IP address and the location of where it was, the person that wrote it, and if they’re too close of a relationship with you and all these things. So because of that, the publisher was like, “Listen, reviews are a big deal. So as the book is in its launch phase, don’t ask people to go buy it. Ask them to give it an honest review.” So that was part of the call to action during the launch period and I think that probably helped get to that number.

Chris Stadler:
I don’t think I’ve ever seen a book with five stars from that many reviews, so that’s pretty impressive. I do have another question, though. I’m a practical guy, so what is one way I can, in the day to day or process, what’s a practical way that I can live out some of the advice from the book? Like just pick something, bring it down to Earth today. What can we do to love people?

Grant Botma:
So, affirmation, big deal. There is a very good chance that, Chris, are you married?

Chris Stadler:
Yes.

Grant Botma:
Okay. What’s your wife’s name?

Chris Stadler:
Shauna.

Grant Botma:
Shauna. She probably has no idea how good you are at your job. She probably has no idea the things that you do here. She knows you’re good.

Chris Stadler:
She probably assumes I’m better than I am, but. No, okay. Let’s go with the reality. She doesn’t know.

Grant Botma:
But my guess is she has no details, right?

Chris Stadler:
Yeah, exactly.

Grant Botma:
So I’m going to, does she ever listen to this podcast?

Chris Stadler:
No.

Mike Jones:
She is today.

Grant Botma:
I’m going to-

Mike Jones:
Chris is going to send it to her.

Grant Botma:
I’m going to ask that you have her listen to this portion. And I’m going to just talk to her.

Grant Botma:
Shauna, I don’t know Chris but I just met him and I’m a person who because of this stinking book I’ve been on a lot of different podcasts. But I can tell you that what I know about Chris is that his voice is really, really great for this podcast. He’s very conversational, and he’s making this easy on me. And as a person who’s been on a lot of podcasts, that’s not always true. Shauna, your husband Chris is really good at his job.

Chris Stadler:
Am I turning red?

Mike Jones:
Not yet.

Chris Stadler:
Okay.

Mike Jones:
You might feel like you’re turning red.

Grant Botma:
I don’t know how often somebody with relevancy has maybe even said that to Shauna. And that’s a big deal is that type of affirmation. So for me, a trigger, whenever I see somebody who comes and is affiliated, whether it be family or friend that works for me, I almost ignore my employee and take a beeline straight to that person’s spouse or kid or parent and just say, “Do you know how awesome so and so is at their job?”

Chris Stadler:
You know who else who does that? We interviewed him on a podcast.

Mike Jones:
I was just thinking about this.

Chris Stadler:
Yeah.

Mike Jones:
Adam Goodman.

Chris Stadler:
Adam Goodman. Yeah, wouldn’t he send his-

Mike Jones:
I think it’s almost every year or it might be more frequent. He sends the family members of his employees a letter from him.

Grant Botma:
Beautiful. Well done.

Mike Jones:
So he writes a letter that’s personalized to each family because his philosophy is, “When I hire someone, when they’re coming on to the Goodman’s team, I am borrowing that time from their family.”

Grant Botma:
Yes.

Mike Jones:
And so it’s a thank you letter to them. I think it’s annual. I think you’re right it’s an annually if I remember right. That’d be a good follow up question for him.

Chris Stadler:
Yeah I just remember him saying he would, I just remember he would give it to them and then it would be, sorry if I’m sort of taking your story.

Mike Jones:
No, go for it. You remember details better than I do.

Chris Stadler:
They put it on the fridge.

Mike Jones:
Yeah.

Chris Stadler:
It would matter to them.

Mike Jones:
Oh, it’s a huge deal.

Chris Stadler:
They would keep it for a long time. It would sit on the-

Mike Jones:
And it’s a thank you letter from him to the family saying thank you for letting Joe or Julie spend at least eight hours a day for five days a week as part of our team. They could be doing so many other things.

Grant Botma:
Why is that so stinking smart? Think about the employees. One, Employee A and Employee B. Employee A does not have support from home to go to work. When they leave to go to work, their spouse or their kids might complain. Their spouse or the kids don’t think highly of the boss, manager, or the company. Or you got Employee B who has kids and a spouse who are like, “Yes, go.” Encouraging them out the door. “Go pursue that mission and that purpose, we think it’s awesome, you’re making the world a better place. Go, do it, make it happen.” There’s a completely different level of performance that those employees are going to give-

Mike Jones:
Because they’re being supported.

Grant Botma:
Yes.

Chris Stadler:
Yeah.

Mike Jones:
And not only that but I think through the context of, what do most employees bring home? What do most team members bring home from their work?

Chris Stadler:
It’s like a paycheck, right.

Mike Jones:
Okay, so they bring home a paycheck. That’s one obvious one. What’s the other one? What’s the emotional one?

Chris Stadler:
They’re tired maybe.

Mike Jones:
They’re stressed out. All of the issues at work come home. The good stuff probably doesn’t really come home because we feel, emotionally, we feel in a longer term way. We feel pain, we feel frustration, we feel stress way more, and we remember it way more than we do joy and happiness. And so that family member, that wife, those kids or that spouse, they’re going to remember all of the bad interactions that that person has had at work. And they probably either never hear or don’t remember any good interaction that does happen.

Mike Jones:
So I think going back to your point, Grant, those words of affirmation directly to that family member from someone in leadership, whether that’s spoken or written down, that’s got to have huge impact.

Grant Botma:
It does. And that’s why the main point of my book is not just create a purpose, but a unified purpose. You’re not just unifying the team or the family within the walls of your company, but you’re trying to unify their support system at home as well. Just for me, if I’m coming home with stress of my job and my wife isn’t on purpose with me, my kids aren’t on purpose with me, they don’t know that yes it’s important that daddy goes and loves people through finances, they’re just going to get upset and loathe and have bitterness towards my job. Whereas I have a wife and kids who are unified with me in this purpose and they will come and give me hugs or snuggles when it’s needed. My wife will give me a back rub and cook a great meal. Those things, they say, “It’s okay. It was a rough day but we’ll get them tomorrow,” type stuff, that’s a big deal.

Chris Stadler:
Think about, not just from the employer’s standpoint but from the employee, just how more focused and stress free their life’s going to be with all the support they have. They don’t have to try to walk this razor’s edge between family life and feeling like they’re taking from their family.

Grant Botma:
And there’s only so many calories our brain can use up in a day. So if they’re using it on stress and that tension between home life and work life, well what if the home life is supporting it and adding more calories back so when they do get in to the office, now they’re a higher performer.

Chris Stadler:
And so what if companies started just giving knowledgeable informed, because I feel like there have been things where it’s like, “Oh yeah you’re great,” kind of thing. And it doesn’t feel genuine but someone who’s worked with you or like, Grant, you used your experience with me, even though it’s limited. But you used that experience and based it on that. You didn’t say, “Oh, Chris is great at his job.” Like you don’t know that, but you didn’t say that. What you said was what you knew. And so they came across as legitimate, sincere, and-

Grant Botma:
Yeah, I listened. I’m experiencing your real value to my life right now. And I wanted your wife to hear that because to me that’s important.

Chris Stadler:
Well, I’ll have her listen to the episode.

Grant Botma:
Good.

Mike Jones:
She should, because Chris, you do a fantastic job. I was just thinking about this as we were talking. One very simple small way, maybe it’s not small to you, but it’s not like you do this all the time, but your prep for these podcasts is awesome.

Chris Stadler:
Thanks.

Mike Jones:
You make us look so much better because you’re prepared and you’ve thought through content, you’ve thought through questions and you put these awesome guides together.

Grant Botma:
Look at you guys just giving examples. Thanks guys.

Mike Jones:
So Shauna, Chris is awesome at what he does.

Chris Stadler:
All right, so that’s a really good practical tip that employers can put to use right now. So let’s put something to rest now. What’s one of the biggest myths that are out there that your book busts? Now you already… I don’t want to go over that, so salary is more important then, so we talked about that. Is there another one that you can think of?

Grant Botma:
Yeah, so I’ll tell you a rebuttal that people typically give me which helps bust that myth. “No, Grant, you don’t understand I’ve had people to leave me to go get paid more. Money is the most important thing, I’ve experienced it. And because when I can offer the highest comp plans then I can get a lot of people to fill out resumes or give me resumes for the job.”

Grant Botma:
One, trying to compete comp wise with other companies is dumb from a financial perspective, like I’ll just put my financial advisor’s hat on. You should make your comp plan based on your company’s budget, bottom line, not somebody else’s budget. Unless you’re looking at your competitors budget too and their financials, then don’t make your-

Chris Stadler:
More likely than not they’re not equivalent.

Grant Botma:
Yes. So now put that aside. Money leads to all three of those things I talked about. Why do people want high comp plans? Why do people want money? So they can have more foredoom. So they could retire early, or could take more vacations or they can spend more time. That’s what they really want-

Chris Stadler:
Or feel respected, right.

Grant Botma:
That’s the affirmation piece.

Mike Jones:
Or it’s a status symbol. I make more than the people around me or as much as what I think I am worth.

Grant Botma:
Or with my money I’m buying this car or this home or this thing because I want people to tell me I’m good at what I do. I’m good, I’m valuable. They want that affirmation. Or even it is for a purpose. I really want to provide for my family. I want to pay for college education. I don’t want my wife to have to work. I don’t want, all these things, I want to donate to a philanthropic endeavor. So the money is pointing to all three of those things. So why not, as a business and a manger and a leader, give them those three things too.

Mike Jones:
Yep, not in my head, a lot.

Chris Stadler:
Can’t hear it on a podcast but I’m nodding. So I liked what you just said. You said that you offer a compensation package based on your budget in your company.

Grant Botma:
Yes.

Chris Stadler:
So that sounds a lot like, a little bit like how we approach branding. So who are you and what are you and what do you actually have? If you do a swot analysis for your company, you say here’s who we really are. You’re trying to the truth of something. And so by offering a compensation package where you’re saying well okay we can pay this much for this role, you probably do a little research, find out what that role pays so that you’re close, but then you’re saying that on top of that you have these non tangible benefits that you’re going to be able to offer that satisfy those needs. So when they come in, where’s the strength in that? Are you going to get as many people to apply for a job like that, you think?

Grant Botma:
Totally, if you advertise the job correctly. Here’s the first thing; do you really want somebody to come to you just because you had the highest comp schedule? Because if that’s how they are, they’ve proven that they’re selfish and how do selfish people act in a culture or on a team? And that also means that if they see another comp plan that’s going to be higher later, see ya. So I’m not advertising about the compensation whenever I communicate I have a job opening. I create a one page landing page that just says, “This is who Stewardship is and we make the world a better place in this way and you get to do it with these people.”

Grant Botma:
I talk all about the unified purpose. I talk all about the affirmation that they’ll receive. I talk all about the freedom that they get with the job. And I’ll just give you an example. I recently hired somebody for a very part time position. The pay is just slightly over minimum wage, it’s a very back office admin thing, but because of the freedom, because of the affirmation and the purpose, I had over 80 resumes that just came in within days. Now part of that is because of how I advertised it and put it together. But the other part of it is the kind of coalescence of branding and my culture and how Stewardship is and the impact that we’re making on real people is known in my community. We talk about it often.

Grant Botma:
In my social media posts I am uplifting my employees not because they did so many transactions but because they made real impact on real people’s lives. And research and studies are telling us that people will take up to a 30% pay cut if they know that they get to do work that matters. So if I’m communicating that my entire team every day we do stuff that matters, then people are already going to be attracted to that.

Grant Botma:
The number of emails that I get on a monthly basis of people that are gainfully employed somewhere else that want to come work for me and they don’t care if they have to take a step down, you guys would be shocked at the number of people that do that. Why? Because we have a purpose that’s unified, that the team is gathered around together and we have affirmation, we have freedom.

Mike Jones:
Yeah, when we relate these things back to brand, I think one of the arguments that we always make is that brand is not just a marketing tool, it’s an all of your company tool. And it has huge impact, I think, if you utilize it right because it’s the same things; it’s purpose, it’s culture, it’s values, it’s how you interact with people within your company as well as externally and the behaviors that flow out of those things. From a corporate standpoint, from an organizational standpoint.

Grant Botma:
Who are you, what do you care about, and how do you therefore then-

Mike Jones:
Yeah, when we talk about purpose it’s like, we just wrote about this. If you have a really solid understanding of why you exist and who you serve, who you are a best fit to serve with, that may actually cost you on the customer side, it might cost you some leads. It may, actually, cost you some potential recruits. Because you’re essentially saying, “Look, if you don’t hold to these values and this purpose, you’re not going to thrive here.” Now in your case I think eventually if you do it right, you actually find that it attracts more, more of the right people.

Grant Botma:
It’s a long tail approach.

Mike Jones:
Now, could I go get more than 80 people to submit a resume for your back office part time admin position? I bet I could. There’s a couple things it’s going to cost me. One is, it’s going to cost me more advertising dollars. I’m going to have to spend more to get more eyeballs on that thing, to get more responses. Especially if I’m not really clear about the purpose and the value system of the organization. And then secondly, I’m going to get a lot more unqualified leads.

Grant Botma:
100%

Mike Jones:
Which mean I’m going to spend more time sifting through resumes that are trash, that are not who we want. And then I’m going to spend more time, I might have great resumes from really high performing people but once I actually meet them I realize, wow these are intrinsically selfish people who really are just in this for the paycheck. And they might be great in the short term but in the long term they’re actually going to hurt my company.

Grant Botma:
That’s poison, man.

Mike Jones:
And I’ve seen that personally. I’ve experienced that in our company. I’ve definitely seen it at lots of other companies that we’ve worked with where like, yeah you can get amazingly high performing people from a technical standpoint, but from a culture standpoint they’re just going to kill you.

Grant Botma:
There’s something that you’re bringing up here that is extremely important yeah in culture, but also in branding. And this is something that you guys helped me figure out. When I first started, my logo, it was terrible. I was trying to be like everyone else. And the thing that you guys opened my eyes is like, “Hey, Grant, the branding of the imagery, the sounds, the sights, all the things that have to do with what customers see about your company versus what they actually experience are very different.” And I was like, “Oh, I could see how that would be confusing.” So you brought me through various exercises that pulled different things out of me so that you could put me in the brand. And that was unbelievably important. Your brand has to be you, but so does your culture.

Grant Botma:
If somebody goes to say, “Oh, well Grant he does this over here so I have to go do that too and just copy it.” No, no, no, that’s not going to work. If you’re a finance company and you think, “Oh I love that. Love people through finances, we’ve got to do that.” Well if that’s not really you then-

Mike Jones:
It won’t be real, it won’t be authentic. And it won’t actually sustain.

Grant Botma:
Yeah.

Mike Jones:
You won’t be able to fulfill your promises.

Chris Stadler:
No.

Grant Botma:
It has to be you. And when you guys helped me realize that for my branding, again, that was a huge turning point. And it set me off on a journey that allowed me to up level so much easier in every single area of my marketing and my communication and my branding that it had to be me. And that was a big deal.

Chris Stadler:
Yeah, I think a lot of times, Resound, we do a lot of re brands in our branding work. But there’s always, occasionally there’s that company where it’s like there’s a freedom that comes when they realize they don’t have to do it like everybody else. There’s this like, everybody is stoked for different reasons, but you get that one person who’s just like, “I didn’t know I was allowed to be myself. I didn’t know I was allowed to do that. I thought I had to be like everyone else because it’s too dangerous to be myself.”

Grant Botma:
Yeah, part of it too was I was so young when I started the company. Like, “Wait, I can do this? The big boys do this? Are they allowed to do that too?” So part of it was a little bit of intimidation, but the process that you guys bring people through to help bring who they really are out into the brand which makes branding so much more natural and easy so you don’t have to work at it, it creates a renewed sense of confidence. “Yeah, dang it, I am remarkable. And you know what? Other people are remarkable too and the way that I can serve my community who is remarkable through who I am in a remarkable way, that is beautiful. Let’s lean in to that.” That’s what you guys helped me do which I’m forever grateful for.

Mike Jones:
That’s awesome. Thank you for that opportunity. That’s, I think what’s so sweet is when we get to work with people who get that. They buy in and lean in and say, “Hey, let’s have those kind of conversations.” That doesn’t always happen. We get clients who are, there’s a point at which they’re like, “Nope. We don’t want to go that deep. We don’t want to get that real.” And that’s always a challenge where it’s like, “Okay well then there’s a limit to how far your brand’s going to go.” So it’s always cool when we have somebody on who’s like, “yeah, this was incredibly impactful because you allowed us and allowed yourself, even, to kind of unearth all those deeper, that deeper purpose, those passions, and then communicate, really just lean in to that communication.”

Grant Botma:
Yeah, what type of relationship do you want with your marketing firm or advertising firm? Well, for me I was fortunate enough to have one that was filled with empathy and humility and created a real relationship which allowed something really powerful to be created. Yeah, that was important.

Mike Jones:
That’s awesome that’s sweet.

Chris Stadler:
So we have a few minutes left and I wanted to give you a chance to talk about Stewardship. Tell us about Stewardship a little bit, that’s your company, right?

Grant Botma:
Yes. So Stewardship is a company that helps our community with home loans, insurance, and investments with wisdom and love. Practically speaking, we’re a group of four different companies. It’s a mortgage brokerage, an insurance agency, financial planning firm, and an investment management firm. As a whole our goal, as mentioned before, is to love people through finances. We believe that finances are a really, really big deal to people’s individual lives, to families, to households, to communities. We want to be a place where people’s finances are going to be the absolute best, whether they know it or not. And we’re going to serve them with love, yes because we care, but dang it we’re smart. We research, we know what we’re doing. So we’re wise as well.

Grant Botma:
The truth is, you can go get a home loan and insurance and investments all on your own online. And some of those options are great. But for us, our ideal customer is somebody who wants to focus their time and energy on what matters more to them, whether it be their spouse, their kids, their career. So that they have wise advisors that are handling all that other stuff, all those other finances. Our ideal customer’s probably someone who’s savvy enough to do it on their own but they want a wise advisor to make sure for sure it’s getting done right, but also so that they can focus on what really matters. That’s Stewardship.

Mike Jones:
Yeah, it always matters to me. I don’t know how everybody else buys those things, but I want to know, I am curious enough to where I want to know what’s going on. I want to have answers to sound like they come from a place of understanding. And also I want my situation to be known too. Especially something that personal. You want other people to know your point of view on things so that they can help you get there. It’s not always easy to find.

Grant Botma:
Yeah. Through various financial services there are always times where stuff that is bad is going to happen. You might have an insurance claim. And the truth is, most insurance carriers and companies will mess up a claim situation. It’s just going to happen because of the nature of how the insurance world’s put together. So how does your contact there at the insurance company, how do they handle that? Are they really going to listen to your needs and see if they can do something to actually help and step in and work and try to make things happen. And even if there isn’t something that they can do as we talked about at the beginning with that rent situation, right, let’s educate. Let’s tell them, “This is what’s happening, it stink, I don’t like it either. Here’s what we can do now, here’s what we can do in the future,” type thing.

Mike Jones:
My biggest frustration is like, so what should I do in this situation? And they’re just like, “Well, it’ up to you.” It’s like, well yeah I know. I know it’s up to me, I know. But help me out, give me some background.

Grant Botma:
Yeah. Again, we talked about Amazon reviews, which are basically the number one clicked on thing on the Internet. Whether you’re buying investment product, a mortgage, insurance, or a toothbrush from Amazon, you want to know if you’re doing it right. So when somebody who you trust who’s wise and loves you is able to say, “If I were you I would…. and here’s why.” And most of the time, our ideal customer just says, “Sweet, let’s do that.”

Chris Stadler:
Yep. That’s usually what I do. I just want to hear someone who knows it verify what I’m thinking.

Mike Jones:
From my own personal experience working with you guys for a long time as a customer of Stewardship, that’s always been our experience with anyone we’ve worked with where it’s, there’s always a level of, on your side, on your team’s side, a desire to not just move the transaction forward but really explain what’s going on. That’s super helpful, especially for my wife, who is a researcher and wants to know ins and outs of everything. Wants to know what her options are, wants to really understand each option in detail. For instance, we were just emailing back and forth with Greg on your team-

Grant Botma:
Oh, that’s right.

Mike Jones:
About potentially a refinance of our mortgage. And he spent five paragraphs explaining kind of the situation and kind of what he thought and here’s the context of your specific context, like where we’re at.

Grant Botma:
Mm-hmm (affirmative)- Personal.

Mike Jones:
And making it really personalized and saying, “Here’s your options.” And his outcome, it was really interesting, in that specific case, one of his options was not something that Stewardship could help us with and wouldn’t gain any financial benefit from. And so I was like, I appreciate that kind of relationship with anyone that I work with, especially when it’s financial stuff. Where it’s like, I want to know I’m getting an honest answer or looking at the options. We’re not just looking at the ones that best serve that person on the other end. And so I really appreciate that about the culture you’ve built. You’ve really instilled that well, I think, in your team.

Grant Botma:
Yeah, it’s an honor to serve, obviously you and your family, but it’s an honor to serve this community in Arizona. We care and love this community so much. And anytime we have an opportunity again we want to be a place where they’re going to get the best whether they know it or not. And sometimes that best means, “Hey, no, you probably shouldn’t use us.” And we have to say no to a commission. And that’s okay.

Chris Stadler:
It’s a real validation though of, taking your passion, your desire, your sense of how do I help? And I bet there are a lot of people out there that are just like, “You can’t do insurance that way. You can’t do it that way.” And so I think the challenge, maybe, if I might issue a challenge to our listeners, is maybe don’t be so afraid to figure out what that is. Like how would you help people better? And maybe be a little adventurous or at least ask the question and start the conversation and find out; is there a way? Is it possible? I feel like some of the best innovations happen from people just starting with like, “Maybe it’s possible. who knows? If we do this…” and they verbalize it and they tell people.

Grant Botma:
Yeah, the heart of every business is finding a need and filling it. And you can’t do that well without genuinely serving or sacrificing. So if whatever endeavor they go through has serving or sacrifice in it, it’ll work. And I can say that with confidence.

Chris Stadler:
Amen, I love it. So Grant, thanks for talking with us today.

Mike Jones:
Yeah, thank you.

Grant Botma:
This was fun.

Mike Jones:
Awesome.

Chris Stadler:
It’s flown by.

Mike Jones:
Yeah I know. I’m bummed that we have to wrap this up.

Chris Stadler:
Grant is there anything, so how can people find out more about you, about your company, about your book, and other things that you’re doing?

Grant Botma:
Yeah, so probably the best way is to follow me on Instagram. My handle is @grantbotma. I am very active there. I post almost every day. I do an Instagram story almost every day where I either talk about finances or company culture, leadership, or even parenting and family stuff. So, that’s a great way to follow me. Web urls are stewardship.pro. They can learn about Stewardship there. And if you just search my name Grant Botma on Amazon then you can see the book there.

Mike Jones:
That’s awesome.

Chris Stadler:
Yeah, I really encourage people to check out everything that Grant’s doing. It’s been a joy for me to follow you and all the things you’re doing. I get lots of little tasty morsels of advice and some wise counsel without having to call you up every time which I’m sure is great for you.

Grant Botma:
It’s an honor to help, really. I think that with communication and content, especially on social media, my goal is to help and encourage. So those are my filters. Before I hit send or before I hit post I’ve got to make sure it does those two things. If it does, then I do it. And hopefully anybody else who follows me either is encouraged or they feel helped or maybe both.

Mike Jones:
That’s awesome. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Chris Stadler:
Thanks, Grant.

Grant Botma:
This is a blast. Thank you guys.

Chris Stadler:
All right.

Chris Stadler:
The AZ Brandcast is a project at Resound and is recorded in Tempe, Arizona with hosts Mike Jones and Chris Stadler. It’s produced and edited by Sam Pagel, music is produced and provided by Pabrid, an Arizona based music group. You can find us on Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, and at remarkablecast.com. If you’d like more episodes, subscribe on iTunes, Stitcher, Google Play, or wherever you prefer to get your podcasts. To contact the show, find out more about AZ Brandcast, or to join our newsletter list to make sure you never miss another episode, check out our website at remarkablecast.com. Copyright Resound Creative Media LLC, 2020.