Episode 35 // Stephen from Americans for Prosperity talks history, freedom and Arizona.

Oct 28, 2019

AZ Brandcast Chris and Mike interview Stephen Shadegg, from Americans for Prosperity to talk about Arizona’s history and how freedom can help us to flourish as a state and act as an example to the rest of the country and the world.

Contact: Mike mike@resoundcreative.com or Chris chris@resoundcreative.com

Discuss at https://www.facebook.com/azbrandcast/

AZ Brandcast is graciously sponsored by Conscious Capitalism Arizona – the global movement inspiring businesses to do good…because it’s just good business. Find out more about Conscious Capitalism and the many companies transforming our world for the better on their website: consciouscapitalismaz.com

And our show is produced by Phoenix Business RadioX and recorded at the enviable MAC6 coworking space in ever-sunny Tempe, Arizona (the 48th – and best state of them all).

Show Transcript

Speaker 1: Broadcasting live from the Business Radio X Studios in Phoenix, Arizona. It’s time for Phoenix Business Radio, spotlighting the city’s best businesses and the people who lead them.

Chris Stadler: Welcome to AZ Brandcast where we talk to all sorts of awesome people about the power of brand and how to build great brands in our remarkable state of Arizona. We’re the hosts.

Mike Jones: Mike Jones.

Chris Stadler: And me, Chris Stadler.

Mike Jones: That’s awesome. And we’re super excited to have a guest on today. Stephen Shadegg, who is the … Did I pronounce that right?

Stephen Shadegg: You did.

Mike Jones: Great because for a second I was like I screwed it up already. You are the State Director of the Arizona Chapter of Americans For Prosperity. You’re also, very cool, third-generation Arizonan native.

Chris Stadler: Rare.

Mike Jones: You have a passion for politics and especially Arizona politics.

Stephen Shadegg: Yep.

Mike Jones: Which knowing your history a little bit makes perfect sense.

Stephen Shadegg: I would hope so.

Mike Jones: Yeah, I would hope so too. And you have substantial experience working on and managing both US House and Senate campaigns in the political sphere. In 2016, you served as Senator John McCain’s deputy campaign manager, before moving to Attorney General, Mark Brnovich’s office as the director of outreach. Most recently you served as Martha McSally’s campaign, on her campaign for US Senate in 2018. Is that correct?

Stephen Shadegg: Correct. Yep.

Mike Jones: And then you’re also the son of former Congressman John Shadegg and the grandson of Stephen C Shadegg who managed campaigns for both, or for Barry Goldwater and grew up working on his father’s six successful congressional campaigns. That is a mouthful and a resumeful.

Stephen Shadegg: Yeah, pedigree. Totally.

Mike Jones: That’s awesome. In your free time, which I assume you have tons of, with all these things that you’re involved in, you just like spending time with your family, which is awesome. Your wife, Stacy, family and friends, boating and offshore fishing. We’re going to have to figure out a way to plug that somewhere in here.

Chris Stadler: There we go. I like that.

Mike Jones: And jump on that. So we’re really excited to have you on. I’m especially excited, kind of your deep history and passion for the state of Arizona. There’s like perfect alignment with our podcast because of that and I’m really excited to kind of get your perspective, especially from kind of your political background and things you’ve been involved with within the state. And kind of getting that perspective, so we’re going to jump into that in a second. But first, Chris.

Chris Stadler: Yes. So we have an amazing sponsor, everybody, in case you haven’t heard us talk about them before. We have amazing friends at Conscious Capitalism who are our sponsor, Conscious Capitalism Arizona, where Mike actually serves as… What’s your role again?

Mike Jones: VP of marketing I think is the official external title that I have. Basically I just make sure that people know about stuff we’re doing, which I’m trying to get better at while I build out my team.

Chris Stadler: Awesome.

Mike Jones: Yeah.

Chris Stadler: So Mike helps them in their mission. The local association’s mission, which is to share with the whole world how doing good in businesses is just good business, right.

Mike Jones: Yep.

Chris Stadler: This local chapter of Conscious Capitalism Incorporated hosts tons of local events and provides resources for business leaders to instill a higher purpose in their company and engage all their stakeholders. So you want to be conscious, you want to know more about this, you want to instill this into your business, want to be around other people who have this idea and share the ethos of Conscious Capitalism. Well got good news because you can get in touch at consciouscapitalismaz.com, consciouscapitalismaz.com.

Mike Jones: Or you can go to ccarizona.org. Arizona spelled out. We just changed the domain.

Chris Stadler: Nice.

Mike Jones: And I forgot to update the show notes.

Chris Stadler: Good job.

Mike Jones: So …

Chris Stadler: Good job changing the domain.

Mike Jones: Good job changing the domain, not good job updating the show notes Mike. Great job.

Chris Stadler: Okay, so to start us off. Yes.

Mike Jones: One last plug for Conscious Capitalism, if you don’t mind. We have an event, one of our member meetings on October 24th, which is in two days. So lots of lead time for everybody to get that on your calendar and make sure you’ve got time for that. 5.30 to 7.30 right here at Mac6 Conscious Workspace and we’re going to be kind of covering what the new chapter look is going to look like over the next year. Events that we have coming up, new programs that we’re developing. We have a lot of really cool new things in the works and we’re excited to tell everybody about it. You do not have to be a member to come to this meeting because that’s part of our rollout is new membership plans. So come to the meeting, find out how you can become a member, but also just get to know Conscious Capitalism here in Arizona and what we’re doing and all the fun awesome events and programs and activities that we have coming up in 2020.

Chris Stadler: Cool. So it’s not too late to sign up.

Mike Jones: Nope. Never too late to sign up.

Chris Stadler: Okay.

Mike Jones: If you can’t sign up because you, I don’t know, you’re off the grid, listening to this off the grid and you don’t have access to the internet to actually sign up online. Please just show up, we’ll register you at the door. It’s free. There’s no cost. It makes it real easy.

Chris Stadler: Is there food?

Mike Jones: There is food and drink. There’s always food and drink. How do you have a… I don’t know how you do anything like this and not have food and drinks. You got to do that.

Chris Stadler: Yeah.

Mike Jones: That’s like part and parcel. That is Conscious Capitalism. How do you take care of all your stake holders? You make sure their bellies are full.

Chris Stadler: Yeah.

Mike Jones: That’s the first rule.

Chris Stadler: Is it free?

Mike Jones: It is free.

Chris Stadler: That was a trick question. You know why?

Mike Jones: Because you already knew.

Chris Stadler: Because there’s no such thing as a free lunch.

Mike Jones: It’s why it’s not lunch.

Chris Stadler: I’m getting into economics. Okay. So the ice breaker question today.

Mike Jones: Yes, moving on.

Chris Stadler: So we have Americans For Prosperity right, so maybe a little freedom oriented. We’re all freedom lovers here. So, so what is the law that frustrates you the most?

Stephen Shadegg: Well, I guess I’d have to say that unfortunately the … It is not quite yet a law. However…

Mike Jones: It’s already frustrating.

Stephen Shadegg: In 2021, yes, it’s already frustrating. It’s been frustrating me for a while. But in 20121, the texting and driving.

Mike Jones: Yeah.

Stephen Shadegg: Which prior to the governor and his hard work on this bill, I actually was an adamant proponent of it, really felt as though at some time that that maybe the state would go that direction. My only challenge to that was if we’re going to make a law saying that you can’t text and drive, shouldn’t we make a law that says you can’t put on makeup and you can’t eat food and so on and so forth. And Mike or Chris can’t be changing shirts while they’re driving down the highway at 60 miles an hour. But at the end of the day, [inaudible 00:06:35] it comes down to a public safety issue.

Chris Stadler: Yup.

Stephen Shadegg: And I can understand how we need to make sure that the citizens of Arizona are kept safe and that our family is on the road. We don’t have to worry about them.

Mike Jones: Yep.

Stephen Shadegg: That’s again …

Mike Jones: Yeah and my guess is there’s probably, there’s a significantly fewer number of people changing shirts on the freeway then there are people whipping out phones. So I guess there’s like a economy of scale maybe. Yeah that might be the case.

Stephen Shadegg: I don’t know.

Mike Jones: I’m devil’s advocating here, so I don’t know. That’s what I do.

Stephen Shadegg: I like to multitask when I drive.

Mike Jones: I know, this one’s going to really hurt.

Stephen Shadegg: Yeah.

Chris Stadler: Yeah, I don’t, what’s yours, Mike? I don’t have mine even though I wrote the question.

Mike Jones: So mine is more, it’s less of the law itself and more of the interpretation. So now that we have a new partner who brought his business in and does video and photography, we now have a new tax license that we had to file for. Because the state about four years ago reinterpreted the tax code to include video and photography as a sales tax, like a taxable sales item or product.

Chris Stadler: So it’s not a service.

Mike Jones: It’s not a service. So it doesn’t fall in that exception. And as a service space business, we’ve never had to deal with sales tax because all of our things fall outside of typical sales tax regulation. So, that’s a new thing that we’ve had to deal with. The license was like, okay, it’s fairly easy. Yeah. Charging the sales tax is kind of a pain. There’s software to handle that. The big issue is that the city of Tempe last year did not follow the state’s, like interpretation. And so we were only owing, or well we weren’t, but Sam was with his previous business. Only had to collect sales tax to the state. They have just in the process of getting this license, we contacted the city just to make sure like all our Is are dotted, T’s are crossed. And they’re like, Oh yeah. So we’re kind of re-interpreting that too now and we should know in a couple of weeks. We’re going to follow probably the state’s guidelines on that. I’m like oh.

Chris Stadler: So fun.

Mike Jones: So…

Chris Stadler: So fun.

Mike Jones: Get excited about that 8.1%.

Stephen Shadegg: Yeah, that’ll be fun.

Chris Stadler: So I thought of mine while you guys were talking. So I was getting my haircut and the lady, she brought it up man. She brought it up about licensing. And so I was like, huh? I was like, so what would happen if, because she was like, well we don’t want people getting sick when they get their haircut, because people not disinfecting the whatever, right. So you have to have that licensing. I was like, “What would happen if people, if a hair place didn’t have good practices and people started getting sick at that hair place.” She was like, “Yeah, people wouldn’t go.” I’m like, “So why do you need regulation?” And she was like, I’m not going to go back to her just because I’m scared now.

Chris Stadler: Anyway, so it’s like, it’s that regulation over things that really don’t need to be regulated. Or where the benefit of regulation is just so small that in my mind, we just, especially with like just all the ability social media gives us to share bad experiences, good experiences, ratings, and things like that. It just seems like the information is there already, and I’m not sure that we need the government making these rigid rules that can’t flex and change to our needs. So, that’s probably the law that… it’s the occupational licensing. Overreach, in my eyes.

Mike Jones: You say that now, but when you get rabies from your-

Chris Stadler: When I get rabies, I will totally flip, and I will change my tune, and I will admit it.

Mike Jones: It’s going to be rabies, too. It’s going to be rabies. I tried try to grab the most random…

Chris Stadler: Shingles.

Mike Jones: Okay. Unfortunately, I think have to go-

Chris Stadler: The consumption.

Stephen Shadegg: I think you’ve got to go back, get your hair cut there. Because, there’s a follow-up question you have to ask her. I don’t know where she’s from, but if she was to move to, say Oregon, and she already has that license-

Chris Stadler: [crosstalk 00:10:55] relicensed.

Stephen Shadegg: She’d had to relicense.

Mike Jones: Yeah, but not the universe. Exactly. It just passed. Was that a law or is that-

Stephen Shadegg: That was last year. Yeah, it was a law.

Mike Jones: [crosstalk 00:11:07] actual state law.

Stephen Shadegg: We’re the first state in the country in which if you have a preexisting license over a year that’s been valid and you move to the state of Arizona, that license is still valid in the state of Arizona, which obviously creates a lot of economic opportunity for all types of industries.

Chris Stadler: Yeah. That’s awesome. I love it. I came from Oregon [crosstalk 00:11:27]. So, we’ve talked, we had a conversation before which was really interesting about Arizona’s just a little bit on Arizona’s history and just how this podcast we’re always looking for things in history, things in culture, that are going to help us understand what Arizona’s brand is. Because Mike and I, we work in branding and you don’t make up a brand. Well, some agencies do, but we don’t. You don’t make up the brand, you discover it. You find out what’s really going on in the company, what’s really going on in the culture, and then how does that become a strength and leadership? So the question is always, well, what is it about Arizona that makes Arizona so special and that allows Arizona potentially provide leadership for the country maybe, or maybe the rest of the world. What is so special about us? Maybe you can talk a little bit about Arizona’s history and just the whole-

Stephen Shadegg: Sure. When we had talked earlier, I said that it was a question that I quite frankly had not really given much thought to at the time. Although, growing up in Arizona, being around, and hearing of certain individuals names and leaders in this state, I’ve always heard about it, but you never really think about, man, what really does make Arizona so different from so many other States?

Stephen Shadegg: If you go back and you look at it, and your question got me thinking about it, and the truth is that I really think it’s at the core culture of our state in some ways to be almost a pioneer state. You have people like Barry Goldwater who obviously made a very successful life for him here in the state of Arizona. Barry Goldwater when he was a Senator, firmly believed that power should rest in the hands of the state and not federal government.

Stephen Shadegg: When you put the power in the state, it allows states to drive what laws and regulations they need that are necessary but also limit those that might limit the opportunities for economic growth. At that same time, you have governors like Jack Williams who once again really focused on building Phoenix as a metropolitan city and was very successful at doing so. And then all the way down the road to now you have people like governor Doug Ducey.

Stephen Shadegg: I think it’s that culture of the pioneer and being settled alone in the outside and focusing on what’s best for our state. Has really allowed us to focus on the economic freedom aspect of it, which once again, going back to Barry Goldwater, if you look at consciousness conservative, his main purpose, he outside of Ronald Reagan, some may disagree with this, but I feel as though he was one of the founders of conservatism and at the end of the day, I feel like there’s all this talk about is Arizona going to be purple, it’s going to be red, it’s going to be blue? And ultimately what I think Arizona really is, and it’s going to stay, which is conservative.

Chris Stadler: We were having an interesting conversation earlier about a city. You have a city, and cities they usually start to lean more liberal. I don’t know if that’s always true.

Mike Jones: I’m sorry, this is a conversation Chris and I were having earlier. We’re pulling you into something and maybe you don’t want to get sucked into this.

Chris Stadler: [crosstalk 00:15:02] our conversation that we had earlier.

Mike Jones: Cities tend towards top-down social programs, or welfare programs, and that’s not just an American or modern sociological thing, that’s a human history. When you see people congregate in one central location, there’s opportunity for programs to be developed either at the government level or within a community that help beyond the individual. So, that’s part of it. There’s a natural flow and then there’s also a flow of typically poverty tends to be attracted to cities. Because there’s access to resources and people that you don’t get outside the city.

Mike Jones: If I’m poor and I have an opportunity to move, I’m going to go where I have the most access to the most opportunities to work, the most opportunities to ask for help. And that’s going to be where there’s more people.

Mike Jones: That doesn’t just happen in a modern sense, some of this is flowing out of lot of study of Roman history that I’m going through right now and how the cities became massive centers of poverty throughout most of Roman history because of its access to wealth.

Mike Jones: The wealthy were there, those who are disenfranchised and impoverished primarily from rural areas who are put out of work really because the imported slaves into these farms. And so they all ended up in cities.

Chris Stadler: Well, I’m thinking of Oregon also. In Oregon, everywhere outside of Eugene, basically outside of the I5, is they vote, it’s very red, and then, but Portland, Eugene, very, very blue. Just polar. What does that mean for Phoenix? And I’m wondering what the vision was for building Phoenix as a city even. What was the-

Stephen Shadegg: Well, that’s a great question.

Mike Jones: Not to drive us into the deep end.

Stephen Shadegg: [crosstalk 00:17:10]. I’m not quite sure what the vision really was, but I do believe that, and this is something that at Americans For Prosperity, we really do focus on, I think that if you look at today’s atmosphere, everything has become very polarized. It’s right/left, moderate, whatever you want to call it, and at the end of the day, I really do see the country, and I think Arizona is a good example of this, it’s going back to is it about an ideology and a party, or is it about a principle, the views, and the issues?

Stephen Shadegg: With Americans For Prosperity, we focus on the issues and not the party or the whatever letter, whatever was sitting next to individual’s name. Because at the end of the day it’s those policies and those issues that really create the impact on society and the state, across the country.

Stephen Shadegg: I think that’s key for moving forward, both here in Arizona and the state, is we’ve got to understand that we’ve got to tear through the atmosphere that exists right now and really get down to the core concepts of what makes America successful and prosperous, and what makes Arizona prosperous.

Stephen Shadegg: I think that the vision for Arizona was for Arizona to, although it was the 48th state, I don’t see that as the importance of the state in general. I think if you look at the West in general, Arizona stands out amongst others right now. We are, what I like to say is the last stronghold in the West coast, and hopefully that stays true. I think that is the case because of our conservative philosophical views that really were the foundation back in the ’60s and ’50s, when the state was founded.

Mike Jones: One of the things I noticed about Arizona, I don’t know if this is true or not, this is from my point of view, you look at Arizona, you don’t see the Republican are almost… You really see, like you said, conservatism, but more of a, look, just, we don’t like to be told what to do. You almost get that.

Mike Jones: I always think of the cowboy heritage. I always think about like the Wild West. Yeah, it’s wild, but it also requires you to have to be strong and be able to deal with stuff because there’s freedom, and when there’s freedom, there’s less safety. They’re almost inversions of each other.

Stephen Shadegg: Yep. Well, and that’s that we had talked about earlier, which I’ve always been passionate about is, the kind of cowboy culture in Arizona. When you look to places like Tombstone and the famous shootout at OK corral.

Mike Jones: And it’s the town too tough to die, man.

Stephen Shadegg: Yeah, exactly. Yep. And then I mean Tombstone has become a little more tourist focused, but you could still go up to places like Prescott, Arizona. Walk into the palace and see the safe where Wyatt Earp and his gang essentially would stow their take. And to me, how many places can you go to and really feel that culture and that atmosphere? And fortunately for us in Arizona, something that I’m proud of from a traditional perspective, is that you have places like, Mel Magarky who was a famous cowboy artist and you have other individuals like Marshall Trimble, who’s a famous historian here in Arizona who keeps those stories alive for future generations.

Stephen Shadegg: And what I think is important is that in order to keep Arizona and its culture alive, it’s important that whether you were from here originally or if you’ve moved here, that you understand the rich tradition that exists here in the state, and carry that tradition on and let future generations know what they’re a part of. Because I really do believe it’s important for people to feel as though they are a part of something here in Arizona, something special because Arizona to me is a special place. It’s one of a kind, and that needs to be passed down to future generations and I’ll certainly be doing it with my children.

Mike Jones: Yeah, we were talking about that earlier. I think we’re both trying to work but also distracted by the fact that it’s such an interesting topic. And I think one of the things I said was, I’m just like, “I know Arizona’s special and I just want that to come forward, and I can’t be the one who defines what that is”, which is why we have the Brandcast. But there is definitely something really exciting about Arizona and the closest thing I can track it back to is just that pioneer spirit and figuring out how do we carry those things forward? So I don’t know. Maybe you could help us understand that a little bit. So you talked about the legacy, you talk about that history, right? That tradition. How would we want to see those things carried forward in, whether that’s politics or culture or whatever?

Stephen Shadegg: So, I think it starts in the home with family and it carries over to our schools. All the way down to… I haven’t gone into a Kindergarten class probably in the last year or two years, maybe even longer than that, but in school, I’d love to know how much do we talk about our state seal and the five C’s? Because that right there is the foundation of something that, most people, when we live in Phoenix, Arizona, or Maricopa County, you tend to forget. You got the copper, cattle, citrus, climate. I mean I would imagine for a third grader probably saying, “None of this stuff is around my house. It’s all buildings and apartments and Safeway and you name it,” and helping them understand tying that to the importance of Arizona. And then quite frankly, taking them on field trips, it doesn’t take much to go out-

Mike Jones: Those things are still there-

Stephen Shadegg: Yep.

Mike Jones: – and they’re not that hard. It’s not like they’ve completely disappeared.

Stephen Shadegg: Nope.

Mike Jones: I think you have to work a little harder, maybe. You’re not going to drive through an orange grove probably in your daily commute, but you’re going to drive through neighborhoods that were, and a lot of them still have those trees right in their front or backyard. I mean Freeport McMoRan is still one of the kind of signature buildings in downtown Phoenix. If you do a Google maps fly over of the state, you can pull out the mines really quickly.

Stephen Shadegg: You can. I’m guessing you have both been to California, you’ve driven to California, which means you’ve probably driven through Yuma.

Mike Jones: Yep.

Stephen Shadegg: So, fun fact. We’ll quiz you guys here. Agriculturally in Yuma alone, what do you think the annual revenue is for the state that’s brought in through Yuma. [crosstalk 00:24:22].

Mike Jones: Percentage of annual agricultural revenue that comes from Yuma?

Chris Stadler: Through Yuma.

Stephen Shadegg: What was the number?

Chris Stadler: Through Yuma.

Stephen Shadegg: Through Yuma. Yeah, in the county of Yuma. How much do you think the county of Yuma produces in agriculture with a dollar number?

Mike Jones: I don’t know if I’d have a reference to even… I would assume it’s a very high percentage.

Stephen Shadegg: Is it like what, 20% of the-

Mike Jones: Oh, I’d go like 80, 90.

Stephen Shadegg: I’ll just give you the number. $3.3 billion a year.

Mike Jones: Yeah. That’s a lot of cash.

Stephen Shadegg: Just in Yuma. So you talk about the importance of agriculture in Arizona.

Mike Jones: Yep.

Stephen Shadegg: It’s very important.

Mike Jones: Yep. Yeah. You just have to work a little harder-

Stephen Shadegg: Yeah.

Mike Jones: … than you used to. Yep. You can’t drive through. I remember driving, I mean this wasn’t even that long ago, in comparatively relative terms, but even just driving through Chandler 20 years ago, you could have seen tons of farming. Most of that’s been developed now, but yeah.

Chris Stadler: In Queen Creek, it’s just… Yeah, there was all kinds of [crosstalk 00:25:18].

Mike Jones: Yeah, you’re right there.

Chris Stadler: My parents had been gone for a couple of years. They came back and just like, “What has gone on here?” The other thing too though is, as you’re talking about education, they need to build theory, right? Kids need to almost research and write and internalize some of these ideas, right? I’m wondering how much the school choice environment here in Arizona contributes to that as opposed to maybe more of a public education heavy state that might be a little more prone to teaching civics and some of those courses from a big government perspective.

Mike Jones: Sure.

Stephen Shadegg: I think it’s a great question. I mean, the question is, what’s the purpose of education and should we be focused on our children receiving an education that is based off a set of metrics and standards or should we be focusing on educating our children on issues that they’re passionate about and helping them self actualize and then understand that if they want to focus on agriculture and they really care about that when they’re in sixth grade, we should make sure they have the opportunity to attend schools that can help them grow that interest into a career someday if they want to. And they should not be limited essentially by where they live geographically. They should be able to have access to any type of opportunity that they want.

Mike Jones: So how does that work because a lot of other States that don’t do that, Arizona seems to be kind of on the front on the kind of leading edge of a school choice. Why does it work here and it can’t work other places?

Stephen Shadegg: Well, loaded question.

Mike Jones: I know right?

Stephen Shadegg: I would say that it works here because again, we have great champions. People like governor Deucey have allowed those opportunities to really grow. I think there’s certainly a lot of room for growth and there are things that we can do, coming down in the future, to create more opportunity for students. But again, going back to being proud of Arizona, I am very proud of what we have been able to accomplish here from an educational perspective in the state of Arizona and in other States across our community of Americans for prosperity. We’re in 35 other States and Arizona is helping those States lead the charge in their activities at their legislative level and to show them why educational opportunities and creating educational choice is extremely important and not only extremely important, but everybody from the public schools, well district schools, to charter schools to private schools can all coexist and we can all educate and help individuals and students become self actualized.

Mike Jones: So we have a lot of diversity then, right? In Arizona of thought because of those schools. Is that one of the advantages? I know that standardization can be a really good thing sometimes. Right? Making sure there are standards. What’s wrong with a common core or a, “We want our kids to be doctors, right? And lawyers and…”.

Stephen Shadegg: I think the issue with standardize testing is one that I can actually speak to personally.

Mike Jones: Okay.

Stephen Shadegg: So when I was growing up, my parents… I think it started with, they realized that for some reason I had some type of speech impediment in kindergarten. And so I started going to this speech therapist and then they said, “He doesn’t seem to be picking up on things as quickly.” And so I basically found out that I had a learning disability. As I grew, I learned that I learned better visually, not oral, better than from sitting there and reading it on piece of paper. And so, I struggled with the standardized test. But when you go and you do like an IQ test, it’s like, “Oh, this person is actually a very gifted individual”. So we’re limiting individuals’ ability to grow and be successful based on test scores. I just don’t think that’s a great model.

Mike Jones: Got you. Well, it’s a measurement of one dimension when you’re measuring people who are multidimensional, right? This is the challenge of almost any kind of standardized measurement of a person. So I mean, we talk about this a lot in our company because we use a lot of personality, behavioral style testing just to help each other-

Chris Stadler: Like DISC.

Mike Jones: Like DISC, or Myers-Briggs, or StrengthsFinder. We haven’t done Enneagrams, but that’d be fun at some point. Anyway, that’s one of the things that we’ve worked through, is team members get frustrated. “You’re putting me in a box. You’re boiling me down to four things, really? I’m way more complex than that. At least I think I am.” And we go, “Yeah, you are.”

Mike Jones: The challenge is that when you only use one to measure a group of people, you really are boiling them down to what is an oversimplification of being a human being. I think in terms of when you talk about schools and kids, you’re really saying, “Hey, we’re setting a specific, not just a bar, but a kind of bar.”

Mike Jones: For you, how you needed to learn, what style fit you best was not captured in that bar. And so, it automatically forces people out. If you don’t have choice, that’s what we keep talking about. That’s the power of choice. Whether that’s within a more structured system, like education, or a free market within a consumer culture. Freedom of choice allows us to self select the best opportunities, the best options, best decisions based on our own personal complexity. Our own context.

Stephen Shadegg: Well, I was going to say and those opportunities should be available to anybody, regardless of their income. I was very fortunate that my parents recognized it. I had a private tutor twice a week, every week from, I want to say it was third grade all the way through high school. The individual that I went to, she passed away from cancer when I was very young, and it was a huge impact on my life because she really taught me how to learn. One of the tricks that she used to do, was to have me take my imaginary camera and snap a photo of it to visualize it.

Stephen Shadegg: There are so many special educators out there that can understand individual students. Understanding and then making sure that whatever student it is and however they learn, they shouldn’t have to go someplace after school, and they shouldn’t have to be driven there. They should have access to that and they should go there all day, every day, and learn the same way as everybody else. It just might be the tools they use to educate are different.

Chris Stadler: Yeah, well, a system that decides… We can talk all we want about how we know everyone’s different, but we have to have this standard for teaching. But it doesn’t matter because if the standard is this and we reward this, it doesn’t matter what we say about people being different and how we can acknowledge that with our lips. But then the standards are still the standards. If you’re rewarded based on a particular learning style, and I don’t have the chance to take my son, who I love deeply, out of that situation and put him in a situation where he might be more successful. That’s just heartbreaking at the family level.

Stephen Shadegg: Yeah, it really is. I think that’s at the core, that’s why it’s so important that as in this state, we continue to drive those opportunities for our children.

Mike Jones: Well, and then thinking about it at the family level, but then also at the economic level. Now you’re losing, from a supply perspective, you’re losing a ton of supply. When those kids are told, well, you don’t really fit in here, you’re a bad kid. Or maybe you’re not that smart. We’re losing a ton of supply in the economy. A ton of thinkers. A ton of thought is not realized in our economy.

Stephen Shadegg: Luckily I would say that that’s what makes our country so great is that if you look at people, the most successful people, people like the owner of Virgin Mobile, Steve Jobs, all had learning disabilities interestingly enough. And what they’ll tell you is that they became so accustomed to failing and being told what they couldn’t do, that it didn’t scare them anymore.

Stephen Shadegg: I feel like only in America can you have the mentality of keep telling me that I am not good and that I’m going to continue to fail, and I will keep pushing forward through hard work and I will be successful. That’s what really makes this country stand out.

Chris Stadler: Who’s the guy who says, “A students work for C students”? Have you guys heard that?

Stephen Shadegg: Who is that? I don’t know if I’ve heard that one.

Chris Stadler: Who’s the guy [crosstalk 00:34:40] Rich Dad Poor Dad [crosstalk 00:34:41] It’s the Rich Dad Poor Dad guy.

Mike Jones: [crosstalk 00:34:43] Guy Kiyosaki.

Chris Stadler: He leaves here?

Mike Jones: Yeah. Not Guy Kiyosaki.

Chris Stadler: Kiyosaki. Robert Kiyosaki.

Mike Jones: It’s not Robert.

Chris Stadler: It’s Robert.

Stephen Shadegg: For some reason I want to say Dave Ramsey.

Chris Stadler: Yeah, if you’re listening, Robert, sorry, I’m messing up your name, but please, we’d love to have you on the show.

Mike Jones: We’ll find it here. We’ll correct our mistakes in show.

Chris Stadler: But what you just said, maybe in a society where it’s a little more rigid, where you have a clear path from school to college to your profession, maybe, that’s not as true, but in American maybe it is more true. Maybe that’s why, because we have the freedom.

Chris Stadler: Look, I’m not a detail person. I’m not going to be the A student maybe, but I can lead a business because I can organize people. I can think that way. I can help people be better. I can delegate. I can let other people be strong where I’m weak kind of thing. So you can actually create a business and be successful regardless of your grades and your SAT score.

Mike Jones: Robert Kiyosaki.

Chris Stadler: Robert Kiyosaki.

Mike Jones: Author of Rich Dad Poor Dad, among other books, I believe.

Chris Stadler: Love that guy. We love you, Robert Kiyosaki.

Mike Jones: That goes to well why is that student a C? Is it because they’re just a poor student or is it because they’re in an environment and held to a standard that doesn’t fit their learning style?

Mike Jones: When you take away the standardization, when they enter the business realm, where that standardization is less in play, now they rise to occasions that actually fit them. Their abilities, skills, talents, and behavioral style becomes a strength rather than a weakness.

Stephen Shadegg: Well at the university of Oregon, I couldn’t let students cheat, but at the same time I was like, but if you’re working together on something that’s like entrepreneurship, isn’t it?

Mike Jones: I want you as my professor. [crosstalk 00:36:49].

Chris Stadler: But that also potentially it takes us to another question we have on the list here, which is, so maybe some of those students are maybe a little bit renegades. All right, so that leads us to the question, what character traits does an individual develop in a freer society maybe? What do you guys think? Are there special character traits that start, get developed, tested maybe, in a freer society where there are fewer, laws, fewer things to protect you from yourself?

Stephen Shadegg: I would have to say that the spirit of entrepreneurism has got to be there as part of that. When you’re not limited by government telling you what you can and can’t do. You’re able to be a social entrepreneur. You’re able to create ideas on your own. Whether you go out and actually apply those, whether you succeed or fail, the ability to do that, I think, creates a culture of hard work really.

Mike Jones: Do you guys see that in Arizona a little bit? Do you start to see that when you look at the entrepreneurship going on here, do you start to see a little bit of that, what you just said?

Stephen Shadegg: Definitely. I think Arizona, just like other places, Oregon, but in Arizona, where you go back to people came here because of our soil and that if they were limited by government, they would have to stay back in the East coast. But they moved freely to our state and I can’t even imagine. I think sometimes I think back to it, thinking of what was it like to live in Phoenix, Arizona when there was no air conditioning and you had to go out-

Mike Jones: Every day of my life, or at least all summer.

Stephen Shadegg: Talk about entrepreneurs. If that happened to me and I was here in August, I’d be like, “I’m out. We’re going to California. Let’s just keep going until we find something better.”

Mike Jones: Yeah, I think there’s a resilience. I think the spirit of entrepreneurism is totally right. And I think within that there are some sub-bullets. One of them I’ve seen is this spirit of resilience. I think some of that you can go all the way back, 1860s and guys are setting up farms in the Valley and just hacking away at the dirt, trying to figure out how to make this work in 100 plus degrees all summer. That just blows my mind.

Mike Jones: What you just said, I was just like, why would anyone have the willingness to stick that out? And there’s really only one answer is they’re just resilient people. Maybe a little stubborn.

Chris Stadler: A little crazy.

Mike Jones: A little crazy, a little stubborn. If you know the stories about how Phoenix started, you’re like, yeah, they were a little crazy.

Chris Stadler: The Wild West, man.

Mike Jones: But I think we still have that. There’s still this sense of I’m not hampered by anything other than the constraints of the physical environment, for the most part. It’s pretty easy to stand up a business. It’s pretty easy to get started, and really it comes down to am I willing to put in the work and the time, and have the patience and resilience, to get through every hurdle that’s going to come up, no matter what. That’s just entrepreneurism. There’s going to be hurdles.

Mike Jones: Can I plow through that? Can I keep hacking at the dirt until I finally get the growth that I’m looking for? I’ve seen that. I think I’ve seen, it even less so from a… There’s the governmental regulation side of things, but also from an investment side. That’s one of the common complaints in the startup community here is there’s not enough money in the state, or people who have it aren’t investing it in anything other than real estate.

Mike Jones: I think that’s changing but that, also at the same time, is a positive because it forces people to get creative and be like, “How can I bootstrap this? How can I make this work without this big influx of cash?” Which has its own challenges and has its own pitfalls. It’s not like one is indicatively better than the other.

Chris Stadler: So now we’re starting to see a connection between the character traits and maybe hope. I don’t know. What all goes into that entrepreneurial attitude? And then that wild west, like, “Hey, don’t tell me what to do,” kind of thing and that actual economic success maybe? I don’t know, am I imagining this connection?

Stephen Shadegg: No, it’s clearly here. Every day you notice that people are coming from California, from Texas, from places like New York. And the question I’d have to you is, you get on the show and talk with business leaders every day, and entrepreneurs every day. Why are they coming to Arizona?

Chris Stadler: One of the common answers, which I hate, and I don’t think this is the real answer [crosstalk 00:41:55].

Mike Jones: It’s a superficial answer.

Chris Stadler: Yeah. And you know what I’m going to say, Mike, already. It’s less expensive here.

Mike Jones: That’s part of it. We’ve talked about this a lot on the show, because we keep getting that answer, or we get it out in the community and we’re like, I’m not satisfied that that’s it. Part of it is, I think that is an outflow of some of these other things that we’re talking about. Why is it cheaper here?

Mike Jones: Yes, some of that is demand, supply and demand. We don’t have beachfront property, so we are intrinsically going to be a little bit cheaper than somewhere like California, where the majority of people, historically, have wanted to be because it’s beachfront. I’m using air quotes, by the way.

Chris Stadler: And they don’t let you build on the Grand Canyon.

Mike Jones: [crosstalk 00:42:46]. 90% of them don’t own beachfront property. They’re still an hour, 90 minutes from the beach, which is not beachfront. Also, it’s just as hot. Let’s just make that really clear right now. You guys are living in basically a desert and yeah, you’re 90 minutes from the beach, but we’re only five hours from the beach.

Chris Stadler: We might be a little hotter, Mike.

Mike Jones: Some days.

Chris Stadler: I think in Anaheim, we’re a little hotter.

Mike Jones: Death Valley. Death Valley is hotter than here.

Stephen Shadegg: Death Valley is hotter. But places like California, they don’t even have air conditioning in most places.

Mike Jones: No, it’s insane.

Stephen Shadegg: The cost to run air conditioning in Arizona, if you say just because it’s cheaper, it’s not.

Mike Jones: Yeah, there’s other, and that’s a superficial… It really only comes down to real estate. That’s the only one economic factor that people are looking at. When you look at I think a lot of hardware-based companies who are building major infrastructure as part of their business and why they’re doing that here, what I see is not just, “Well, we’re going to use a bunch of land and we want to maximize our dollars, but also we want stability.”

Mike Jones: Why are server farms popping up all over the Chandler Elliot Road corridor between, basically, Chandler through Gilbert? Well one, access to pipeline because of the internet, one of the major hubs is right there in Chandler, and then secondly, when’s the last time you got a major earthquake? When’s the last time you got a major flood? When’s the last time you had a major fire? There’s very little that’s going to impact their day-to-day infrastructure and business.

Mike Jones: I think that’s a huge advantage that we have. We’re a very stable environment in which to build a real estate-based or a location-based business. And then from a regulatory standpoint-

Stephen Shadegg: Yeah, I was going to ask that.

Mike Jones: I mean, I just know from anecdotal experience from my cousin trying to set up a coffee shop. A coffee shop. You can think of what’s the simplest, hospitality-based business that you could set up? Should be coffee, right? And yet it took them over a year to do that in San Diego. Where I know here, it probably would’ve taken them a couple months.

Stephen Shadegg: Couple hours.

Mike Jones: Maybe not quite a couple hours.

Stephen Shadegg: I’d hate to tie it back, but I would say that goes back to people like Barry Goldwater and allowing the States to have decision rights and not be influenced by the federal government.

Chris Stadler: So there’s the stability in the sense that the natural stability, no earthquakes, whatever. Tornadoes, don’t really have a ton of those. Monsoons, but they don’t affect the server farm.

Mike Jones: They might clog up your air filters.

Stephen Shadegg: There’s been a lot of focus recently though on earthquakes. I don’t know if you guys have caught that, but the last week or two I’ve noticed people keep talking about, “We have earthquakes all the time in Arizona.”

Mike Jones: They’re very minor. We’re not on a major fault line.

Chris Stadler: Well now that you mention it, we have 10 major fault lines, but we don’t have beach front in Arizona yet.

Stephen Shadegg: Growing up, my father would say, and my grandfather actually say that a beach front property in Arizona is one of two things. Either you’re on a golf course or you’re on Mount Preserve. That’s beach front property in Arizona.

Mike Jones: That’s definitely beach front property.

Chris Stadler: Yeah, people don’t tell people in California how beautiful it can be here.

Mike Jones: Yeah, and that’s, I think another factor.

Chris Stadler: We love you California. We’re just kidding.

Mike Jones: Different communities. We love people in California.

Stephen Shadegg: We love the people in California.

Mike Jones: Yes, and I love vacationing. I’ll go vacation. The people I know who are in the business of attracting businesses to Arizona, one of their big selling points is just the state of living here. If you’re totally looking from a talent traction standpoint, obviously we have great schools that are pumping out great talent in different categories. We’ve had people on the show said, “Hey, there’s different areas where that could grow.” And I think that’s true. We’re not there yet.

Mike Jones: But at the same time it’s, when you think about from a cost of living standpoint, to access to great outdoor amenities and outdoor activities, to just beautiful landscapes, this is a place that I think a lot of people don’t realize until they get here, “Wow, I enjoy Arizona. I enjoy being here.”

Chris Stadler: Coming from Oregon, supposed to be a beautiful state, and it is, but man, quality of life is amazing here. The heat of the summer not withstanding. It’s amazing.

Stephen Shadegg: Yeah. Well, how many other states can you water ski and snow ski in the same day?

Mike Jones: Not too many.

Stephen Shadegg: Very few that I can think of.

Mike Jones: Not too many.

Chris Stadler: You could in Oregon, but I don’t know if you’d want to water ski during snowboarding season.

Stephen Shadegg: You might need a dry suit or something.

Chris Stadler: Yeah, no. Yeah, totally.

Mike Jones: It might hurt a little more when you fall.

Chris Stadler: We laugh, but yes, that’s exactly what you do. [crosstalk 00:47:21]. But I was going to make the tie in to the physical stability that the no earthquakes, or whatever few earthquakes, or light earthquakes. I know one of the things that makes investment in the United States so desirable is the stability and rule of law. And so I’m wondering is there a lot of stability with regard to legislation here in Arizona where the laws don’t fluctuate as much, or is there still a lot of fluctuation here in Arizona as well?

Stephen Shadegg: Well, coming from a political background and understanding policy and politics is at the end of the day, I would say that every single day we have got to fight to keep that stability. Because yes, there is a lot of stability here in the state of Arizona. However, that stability would not be there unless it was for the people, the champions that we have here, that fight every day to make sure that we keep that.

Stephen Shadegg: That really goes across the entire country. Freedom has got to be the top priority for Americans in my opinion, because if we do not fight for it, it will be taken away from us. I know that sounds corny, but it’s 100% truth. In the every day, I don’t know if you get in a rental car these days, now if you drive for more than an hour, this little blight flashes and it’s like, consider taking a break. And it’s like, wait, so I can’t even make my own decision to take a break? Are you kidding me?

Stephen Shadegg: Some day someone’s going to say, you don’t get to drive because we don’t trust you. And that right there is a freedom that we’ve got to fight for. Lots of people ask me, I drive a Ford F-250 and I had a former boss, who I will remain unnamed, who asked me, “Why do you drive this truck?” And I said, “Because I can.” Because it was my choice. Now, there are other reasons. I actually use it for towing and stuff, but a lot of it also is because I get joy out of driving the truck, and if I want to take on the financial burden of paying more for fuel, that I should be able to do that.

Stephen Shadegg: No, we still need to focus on keeping those vehicles to a level where we’re polluting the atmosphere less. However, that does not mean we should take away that right to do that. And that really goes back to you’ve just got to fight before it. And I think here in Arizona that stability exists because the culture that we’ve created at the state legislature and across the state, which is that we fight regulation in every way and that it’s easy to put something on the books. It’s hard to take it off.

Chris Stadler: Yup. And so, does that go into… I mean, what are the dangers that are coming that you foresee? What are the threats to that that you see, maybe some examples coming down the pike?

Stephen Shadegg: Oh man, there’s-

Chris Stadler: You’re like, “Let me count the examples.”

Stephen Shadegg: Yeah, there are so many that it’s really hard to pinpoint just a few.

Chris Stadler: Maybe, let me ask it in a different way. What do people need to be looking for? What do we need to understand about legislation coming our way or about lawmakers who are prone to certain legislation? What do we need to know if there is like one thing that we should be thinking about as voters, as citizens?

Stephen Shadegg: I would encourage every citizen of Arizona to look at, before they check a box for an individual, look at the individual’s record and really get down to what does that person stand for. And once you ask yourself that question, I would hope that those individuals, when they’re looking, at what does an individual stand for, the real question comes down to, is this individual going to give me more opportunity, more freedom, or are they going to put… Are they going to hand me that opportunity? Is it a right that I’ve earned that I should get X because I live and breathe? And so I should have access to everything that everybody else does? Or is it something that I want to build, choose where I go and what I do and and how I do it.

Stephen Shadegg: And I think it’s important for people to understand that at the end of the day you can teach a lot of things with knowledge, but truthfully, at the core of every individual, integrity is really the only thing that you can hold onto that is pure and simple as yourself. And I would examine the integrity of the individuals that you want to represent.

Chris Stadler: But, let’s say I have student loans and there’s someone on there who promises that I won’t have student loans if they’re elected? What’s wrong with just, I don’t know, just throwing them a bone… Help them out a little bit, help me out.

Stephen Shadegg: Well, I think that goes back to, as humans, we all have… There are consequences to our actions. Right? And one of the consequences of going to college is the financial cost that it takes.

Chris Stadler: How dare you!

Stephen Shadegg: I know, right?

Chris Stadler: How dare you put that burden on me!

Stephen Shadegg: I mean, we should really go back to as close as free as possible. If you went back to the board of regions and looked at that and examined that for that language, but the reality is that those are choices that we have to make. Yes, everybody deserves access to education that’s affordable. However, it’s a choice you have to make and it’s a choice that if you look at kind of the way that colleges are now set up, they now have academic probation. And the real reason I think that academic probation was implemented, was because the government wanted to make sure that we were not getting individuals in a position where if they continued to fail, they would never be able to pay off the debt that they were creating with that.

Stephen Shadegg: And that drives back to, if you have the passion and the drive to be successful and sometimes you’re going to fail, but shouldn’t we give people second chances? And if the decision at that point is, I don’t want to quit and I’m willing to take on the financial burden that it takes to be successful here, because I’m going to be successful, then we should allow that opportunity. But that’s the decision individuals have to make knowing that there will be consequences of paying that debt off.

Chris Stadler: Yes. No, you swung me. I was skeptical, but you swung me. I have some exposure to the university and one of the things that you see is just a lot of the, “Why are the prices so high? It’s great that we get to build all this stuff and these new schools and everything, but why’re the prices so high?” And then you start to realize that so much of that is complicated by the student loans and the expectation that education, a four year degree, is for everyone. And so that further complicates it because then you’re thinking-

Stephen Shadegg: It does complicate it. Yeah.

Chris Stadler: Yeah.

Stephen Shadegg: Especially when you look at, 15 years ago you could go out and get a private loan for school. Now it’s all federally funded. And so, I think that obviously creates a lot more opportunity. However, I think there’s less hesitancy for an individual, private organization, private finance company will say, “Look, it doesn’t really look like this is a great decision for you.” Versus, in my opinion, government tends to say, “Here’s a blank check. Go give it a whirl, see what happens.”

Chris Stadler: I saw that there’s a PhD in outdoor studies. Just hanging out outside and climbing rocks and stuff. And I was just like PhD.

Stephen Shadegg: PhD-

Chris Stadler: … “That’s awesome.”

Stephen Shadegg: Man, I got to go back to college. I really do.

Chris Stadler: [crosstalk 00:55:55] NAFTA. No, that’s a different thing. Anyway-

Mike Jones: 100,000 grand[crosstalk 00:56:01] to go rock climbing. I’m pretty sure the rock gym doesn’t pay enough. I mean, that’s part of it too. It’s like There’s a whole another podcast episode to be [crosstalk 00:56:15]

Chris Stadler: Well, it’s the utility that you lose going back to the supply side, it’s like you lose this now getting a PhD in outdoor studies, but if you got one in engineering you would actually contribute so much more to society.

Mike Jones: But they’re given equal weight in terms of, like what does it cost you to go get that PhD? Well, it’s roughly the same cost as getting a PhD in engineering, but the financial windfall from those two PhDs is drastically different. Our society doesn’t value the PhD in rock climbing. What does that benefit and there’s just less benefit to society and to businesses.

Stephen Shadegg: But you’ll get student loans and fellowships for both?

Mike Jones: Yup, exactly. And, probably instructors are paid similarly and programs are given equal relevance within the school. I mean, there’s all sorts of fun politic stuff. We’ll have to have Jeff back on. We’ll have to anonymize him though. I don’t know how we do that. We’ll have to like do the voice so he doesn’t get in trouble.

Stephen Shadegg: Yeah, disguise the voice.

Mike Jones: One of my business partners is a lecturer at ASU and he’s got a PhD in philosophy. So he’s got all sorts of fun experience.

Chris Stadler: Just a simple it is like disguise the voice.

Mike Jones: Yeah.

Chris Stadler: The creepy disguise voice.

Mike Jones: Yeah, he’d love that.

Chris Stadler: Yeah.

Mike Jones: So, we’ll still put his name on the episode.

Chris Stadler: You got to get the gentleman or email that has a PhD in rock climbing on here.

Mike Jones: Yeah. Let’s do that.

Chris Stadler: We need to-

Mike Jones: How do you make that decision?

Chris Stadler: You haven’t met this person yet, but they’re out there.

Mike Jones: The program exists. There’s still a question mark whether or not they’ve graduated.

Chris Stadler: And how many students are actually enrolled. Yeah. So, how much time do we have left? Like zero minutes. Okay. So, you’re going to have to let us know, put us in touch with the cowboy poetry guy. Because I want to have cool cowboy poetry, cowboy historian and then we need to get some Native American historians on as well. So you want to do the-

Mike Jones: Sure. I can do the wrap up. We didn’t get to touch on it much and I want to give you a chance. I know we have like zero time, but we’re going to carve out a little bit more time.

Chris Stadler: We can do that.

Mike Jones: Is there anything about Americans for Prosperity that you want to mention before we close out? Anything in particular you want to plug or how people can find out more?

Stephen Shadegg: Sure. I would say that if you want to learn more about Americans for Prosperity, if you care about the direction of our country and the direction of our state, and if I’ve said something on this show that you quite frankly just want to debate, you can find us on Americans for Prosperity, Arizona on Facebook and I think the hashtag on Twitter is like @ArizonaAFP possibly. I should know this better-

Mike Jones: It’s okay, it’ll be on the website.

Stephen Shadegg: … But just search Arizona Americans for Prosperity on Twitter and Facebook and you’ll find us.

Chris Stadler: AZ Prosperity, also AFP.

Stephen Shadegg: There we go.

Mike Jones: There we go.

Stephen Shadegg: I even put them on there too and I can’t remember. But yeah, come by. And if you’re passionate about the opportunities and the direction of your life and you’re happy with where it’s going, I’ll tell you right now, come talk to us, come see us because you got to fight for it. And that’s what we do every single day. And it’s a great feeling. It can be frustrating at times, but it’s what makes our country great.

Mike Jones: That’s awesome.

Stephen Shadegg: And I want to thank you guys for having me on. It’s been a bunch of fun.

Mike Jones: Awesome. It’s been fun for us too, at least for me. I don’t want to speak for Chris. He seems like he’s sulking over there.

Chris Stadler: Yeah, no, it’s been a long time coming. We’ve been trying to get Stephen on for a while and it’s been worth it. It’s worth the effort, so appreciate it, Stephen-

Mike Jones: Totally worth it. Thanks. So, I just want to thank everybody for listening and catching another episode of AZ Brandcast. I’m Mike Jones and my cohost-

Chris Stadler: Chris Stadler.

Mike Jones: … And we are from Resound Branding Agency here in Arizona and we love Arizona and that’s why we do this podcast where we get to talk to amazing business, and community, and government leaders about our great state and what makes this place a special place to live and work and, grow a business, and grow a family, and do everything that we get to do. So thank you Stephen for coming on. We really appreciate it. If you want to find out more about AZ Brandcast, if you’ve been enjoying this episode and want to find out all the other great episodes that we have with some awesome guests, check out EZBrandcast.com. You can also find us on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, Google play, all the normal places where you might be listening to podcasts. And we appreciate when you sign up, subscribe, and if you can, give us five stars wherever you like to review podcasts. If you give us less than that we don’t want to hear about it, but we’ll take five.

Chris Stadler: Keep your stars to yourself.

Mike Jones: Keep your four stars to yourself. We want five. And if you really want to keep in touch, sign up for our newsletter at AZBrandcast.com. You’ll get access to every episode as soon as it is published, and you can keep up to date with Chris and I and all the crazy antics that were up to.

Chris Stadler: Shenanigans.

Mike Jones: Shenanigans. And we are working on better distributing that newsletter and putting more information in it starting in January. Chris and I we’re just working on that today.

Chris Stadler: Yes we were. And we also want to thank Karen, our engineer, and the Phoenix Business RadioX. Karen, you’re awesome. We love you.

Mike Jones: Yeah, thank you for producing our shows every month.

Chris Stadler: Hart Hanson.

Mike Jones: And we want to give a shout out to Conscious Capitalism Arizona, our very gracious sponsor. And MAC6 Conscious Workspace where this studio is hosted, and who provides a great space and the environment that we get to work out of everyday.

Chris Stadler: Ah yeah.

Mike Jones: Thanks everybody.

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